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Offline Cera

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« on: December 09, 2014, 04:25:04 PM »
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  • At our traditional chapel, we used the new St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism. We thought it was unchanged, but found out it has the so-called "Luminous Mysteries." We are in the process of taping over the useless psuedo-mysteries with other Rosary information.

    I am using No. 1, and we are now on Ch. 13., which deals with Communion of Saints. What is this "The word 'communion' means 'a sharing.' . . . The sign of our wish to share is the taking of Holy Communion together. Eating at the same table with others is a sign of friendship." To me, this sounds like modernist heresy, reminiscent of King Henry the VIII's overturning the altars to replace them with "tables."

    Am I being picky here? Does anyone have an OLD version of this Catechism? I cannot find it online.  
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    Offline Marlelar

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    « Reply #1 on: December 10, 2014, 08:30:51 AM »
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  • Here is the regular Baltimore Catechism, perhaps that will help.
    Baltimore Catechism

    Marsha


    Offline Marlelar

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    « Reply #2 on: December 10, 2014, 08:34:41 AM »
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  • Oops, looks like that isn't the complete text.  I'll keep looking, I'm sure I've seen it somewhere.

    Marsha

    Offline Marlelar

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    « Reply #3 on: December 10, 2014, 08:38:43 AM »
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  • This location has a pdf of all three original Baltimore catechisms.

    Marsha

    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2014, 04:06:36 PM »
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  • Thank you Marlelar!
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    Offline poche

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    « Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 11:07:30 PM »
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  • The communioin of saints is as old as the Apostles Creed. It has to do with the relation that we as a Church have with each other. This relatin doesn't stop with death. It includes the Church Suffering (the souls in Purgatory) and the Church Triumphant ( the saints in Heaven) This is why we pray for the souls in Purgatory and we pray to the saints in Heaven asking their intercession.    

    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #6 on: December 11, 2014, 03:59:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    The communioin of saints is as old as the Apostles Creed. It has to do with the relation that we as a Church have with each other. This relatin doesn't stop with death. It includes the Church Suffering (the souls in Purgatory) and the Church Triumphant ( the saints in Heaven) This is why we pray for the souls in Purgatory and we pray to the saints in Heaven asking their intercession.    


    That's what I always thought, and what I was taught. But when I read this St. Joseph Baltimore Catechism by Father Bennet, and it says "communion of the saints" actually means "sharing a meal at the table," I was stunned and rattled. The publisher, Catholic Book Publishing Corp. evidently went back and "modernized" the good priest's catechism.
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    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    « Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 04:16:07 PM »
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  • Cera, unless ANYTHING published for Catholics pre-dates Vatican II, it simply cannot be taken at face value.

    Even highly reliable, dedicated "super-conservative" and a handful of Trad publishers, editors and authors have made a few errors in the past 50 years.

    NOT intentionally, NOT as part of a "secret agenda" but simply because the ubiquity of liberalism, modernism and conciliarism have had SUCH a devastating effect on the minds and technical resources used in publishing that, after 50+ years of deliberate and constant liberal agitprop, certain elements of doctrine and discipline have been deliberately made MORE difficult to ascertain without extensive, exhaustive historical research.

    Thus, the importance of traditionalist websites whereat many good Trads labor constantly to source-check, compare and offer intelligent commentaries.

    Yes, it involves additional expense; original publications are VERY hard to find from before the Council and, thus, quite expensive in the after-market.

    And it also entails sustained effort over years and years of labor, simply to help fellow Catholics to remain in touch with what the Perennial Magisterium and Sacred Tradition have decreed, explained and exhorted the faithful to cling to.


    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #8 on: December 12, 2014, 12:40:29 PM »
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  • The copyright on this book is 1964, with subsequent reprintings. The problem is that the reprints were not reprints. If you look at any book, you will see the original printing date, and then the reprint dates. The so-called "luminous mysteries" existed only in the mind of the heretic Bugnini in 1964, so the logical conclusion is that the publisher is misleading people into thinking this is a reprint from 1964. So we not only have to become very aware, as you point out, but we also have to protect ourselves against those who deliberately mislead us.
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    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #9 on: December 12, 2014, 12:48:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    Cera, unless ANYTHING published for Catholics pre-dates Vatican II, it simply cannot be taken at face value.

    Even highly reliable, dedicated "super-conservative" and a handful of Trad publishers, editors and authors have made a few errors in the past 50 years.

    NOT intentionally, NOT as part of a "secret agenda" but simply because the ubiquity of liberalism, modernism and conciliarism have had SUCH a devastating effect on the minds and technical resources used in publishing that, after 50+ years of deliberate and constant liberal agitprop, certain elements of doctrine and discipline have been deliberately made MORE difficult to ascertain without extensive, exhaustive historical research.

    Thus, the importance of traditionalist websites whereat many good Trads labor constantly to source-check, compare and offer intelligent commentaries.

    Yes, it involves additional expense; original publications are VERY hard to find from before the Council and, thus, quite expensive in the after-market.

    And it also entails sustained effort over years and years of labor, simply to help fellow Catholics to remain in touch with what the Perennial Magisterium and Sacred Tradition have decreed, explained and exhorted the faithful to cling to.


    How do you know that the accuмulated lies and errors are simply accidental? What then, is the "mystery of iniquity" spoken of in the Bible? Why does Jesus warn us of "those who say they are Jєωs and are not." Why does Jesus warn us about the "synagog of satan." Surely, Our Lord was not a "conspiracy theorist." What of all the encyclicals written by pre-V2 popes, warning us against the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic conspiracy? I think it's sort of sweet that you impute no ill-will to publishers who go back and change the words of the authors, who change the truths of our faith. Sweet, but also dangerous if this fear of being labeled a whoo whoo "consssspiracy theorist" keeps one from the big picture.
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    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    « Reply #10 on: December 12, 2014, 01:40:05 PM »
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  • Uh, oh!

    Well, my thanks, Cera, for reminding me why editors are important!

    I tossed that off (without editing) merely to point out NOT that good writers, editors, et al were doing anything wrong - deliberately - nor to IMPLY that they MIGHT have, for any reason whatsoever.

    All I meant (but obviously did not make clear enough) was that good men can and do make booboos - unintentionally - and those mistakes end up in publications.

    Case in point was a critique from Canon Gregory Hesse, STD, JCD on an otherwise good doctrinal book printed by his friends at TAN Publishing. It contained, in Canon Hesse's opinion, a translation error in a critical quotation from the Latin.

    So, I only meant that which I've just described and only in reference to folks as I indicated, i.e., the "good guys," the solid spiritual authors and those who publish them.

    I was not referring to the hooligans who've deep-sixed doctrine and made up a whole new worldly, dumbed-down "religion."

    I've no doubt whatsoever that they knew exactly what they were doing, that it was an evil thing to do and yet went ahead and did it, anyway.

    My apologies for my lack of clarity and any confusion it may have caused you or anyone else.



    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #11 on: December 12, 2014, 04:53:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    Uh, oh!

    Well, my thanks, Cera, for reminding me why editors are important!

    I tossed that off (without editing) merely to point out NOT that good writers, editors, et al were doing anything wrong - deliberately - nor to IMPLY that they MIGHT have, for any reason whatsoever.

    All I meant (but obviously did not make clear enough) was that good men can and do make booboos - unintentionally - and those mistakes end up in publications.

    Case in point was a critique from Canon Gregory Hesse, STD, JCD on an otherwise good doctrinal book printed by his friends at TAN Publishing. It contained, in Canon Hesse's opinion, a translation error in a critical quotation from the Latin.

    So, I only meant that which I've just described and only in reference to folks as I indicated, i.e., the "good guys," the solid spiritual authors and those who publish them.

    I was not referring to the hooligans who've deep-sixed doctrine and made up a whole new worldly, dumbed-down "religion."

    I've no doubt whatsoever that they knew exactly what they were doing, that it was an evil thing to do and yet went ahead and did it, anyway.

    My apologies for my lack of clarity and any confusion it may have caused you or anyone else.



    Thank you Anthony. Especially when you said:
    I was not referring to the hooligans who've deep-sixed doctrine and made up a whole new worldly, dumbed-down "religion."



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    Offline Marlelar

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    « Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014, 01:31:56 AM »
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  • I was just looking at my copy.  It doesn't have a reprint date on it, just the publishing date of 1964.  I don't remember when I bought it.

    Cera, look in chapter 13 and see what question 76 says.  My edition explains communion of saints in the traditional way.  What does yours say?

    My copy also does not have the "luminous" mysteries in it.

    Marsha

    Offline Cera

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    « Reply #13 on: December 13, 2014, 03:01:21 PM »
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  • Hi Marsha,
    Yes, the answer to the question is true Catholic teaching. The insidious part is that there is no discussion of those truths in the current text; it has been replaced with "communion is gathering together at the table to share."
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