So I have been doing some thinking about this recently. Here is a model I have come up with...

Once Baptized, we become members of the Body of Christ. We begin in a state of grace, and are kind of in a state of "cruise control". Cruise Control is when our actions, whether we realize it or not, are in line with God's will. We notice this at times when we do or say things that seem "Predestined". We also notice this when we look back on our lives and realize that things happened for a reason.

At the same time, we still have free-will. When we utilize our free-will we break away from this predestination. Imagine a line...the line represents God's will. There is another line that is completely correlated with God's line. This line represents our actions. So long as we are acting in accordance with God's will...you only see one line. When we utilize our free-will, you see another line break away from the main line, but it would eventually combine with God's line the second we align ourselves with God's will again. Our free-will is sort of an anomaly from the Body of Christ.

Going back to cruise control...us believers try to stay in cruise control as much as possible. So long as we don't resist, or utilize our free-will, we are sort of like a puppet on strings. We just don't necessarily realize it until we look back on things. The key is that we have the choice to break away from our strings, and utilize our free-will. This would be by either venial or mortal sin. The more we do this...the more blind we become to the overall picture. It is when we pray to the saints, and the righteous pray for us that we somehow come back to the realization that we are doing what God predestined us to do. I should also include penance in on that too. Its a combination of penance (including the Eucharist) and prayer from the righteous that removes our blindness of the hand of God. The hand of God being that which controls our strings. The prayer of the righteous being what helps us to see. It may also motivate us and guide us without us realizing.

Generally, it's a bad idea to use unfamiliar terms when dealing with a theological issue, in particularly one that demands a precise approach (esp. predestination).  There is no need to put quotes around predestination or predestined, as they are Catholic dogma.  Presumably the posters here realize the difference between Calvinism and it's offshoots and Catholic predestination.  I do think that your analogy of the line works, unless something is escaping me.

We do not use our free will to 'break away' from predestination.  Predestination is applicable only to the elect, who are saved from Hell by God's mercy.

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Generally, it's a bad idea to use unfamiliar terms when dealing with a theological issue, in particularly one that demands a precise approach (esp. predestination).  There is no need to put quotes around predestination or predestined, as they are Catholic dogma.  Presumably the posters here realize the difference between Calvinism and it's offshoots and Catholic predestination.  I do think that your analogy of the line works, unless something is escaping me.

We do not use our free will to 'break away' from predestination.  Predestination is applicable only to the elect, who are saved from Hell by God's mercy.

But even the elect have free will, and they do sin. Those actions are not predestined.

Predestination refers to God plucking the elect from reprobation in spite of their sin.  We can speak of particularl events in our life as being providential (whether through His permissive or positive will) but predestination as a theological term really only refers to the elect meeting their ordered end, which is Heaven.  

I said something at first, but then I realized that I don't know enough about the topic to comment so I deleted it.

Predestination refers to God plucking the elect from reprobation in spite of their sin. [/b] We can speak of particularl events in our life as being providential (whether through His permissive or positive will) but predestination as a theological term really only refers to the elect meeting their ordered end, which is Heaven.  [/quote]

This is error at its worst. It reminisces Prot. thinking in that we are subject to sin. What would the mafia hitman say who followed his victim to make sure they were in the state of mortal sin before executing them!

There are two vital points in the subject of predestination:
1. That we exist in a world of time which will come to an end; and
2. That God/Heaven exists in the eternal present

InfiniteFaith,

What rattled around in your mind to make you think you are sufficiently a scholar of theology to go bouncing and bumping and rambling down the path of your mini-treatise on predestination?!?!

I agree with Mithrandylan--your "I have it figured out" posting with regard to such a complicated theological subject is not cool.

In other threads I agree with much of what you say.  But then you occasionally post erratic/random/bizarre/off-the-wall "musings."  In the infamous 5,000 page thread you started you immediately sparked such an intense fire-storm that nobody stopped to think about what a dumbass you was for posting those questions.

The thought did cross my mind though that maybe you're not dumb at all and that you are just trying to get us all fighting with each other.

What would you have me do at this point? I won't start anymore race-mixing threads if it is that much of a problem. I think we have covered the issue quite well at this point. For now I will just stick to the Faith and let God sort the rest of it out. I posted this thread to get feedback and input from everyone. While realizing that I could be wrong.

By no means do I have a degree in theology nor do I have the overall picture of everything. Maybe just a few things but thats it.

I really think that it would take all believers, with their combined knowledge, to understand the overall picture. We all have a piece of the puzzle. Everyone knows something where others might not. Hence we are one body.

Quote from: OHCA

InfiniteFaith,

What rattled around in your mind to make you think you are sufficiently a scholar of theology to go bouncing and bumping and rambling down the path of your mini-treatise on predestination?!?!

I agree with Mithrandylan--your "I have it figured out" posting with regard to such a complicated theological subject is not cool.

In other threads I agree with much of what you say.  But then you occasionally post erratic/random/bizarre/off-the-wall "musings."  In the infamous 5,000 page thread you started you immediately sparked such an intense fire-storm that nobody stopped to think about what a dumbass you was for posting those questions.

The thought did cross my mind though that maybe you're not dumb at all and that you are just trying to get us all fighting with each other.

What would you have me do at this point? I won't start anymore race-mixing threads if it is that much of a problem. I think we have covered the issue quite well at this point. For now I will just stick to the Faith and let God sort the rest of it out. I posted this thread to get feedback and input from everyone. While realizing that I could be wrong.

By no means do I have a degree in theology nor do I have the overall picture of everything. Maybe just a few things but thats it.

I really think that it would take all believers, with their combined knowledge, to understand the overall picture. We all have a piece of the puzzle. Everyone knows something where others might not. Hence we are one body.

Predestination is ultimately a mystery.  It's not something that we all have a piece of the puzzle to.  As a Catholic, you're required to believe two things: that predestination exists, and that we have free will.  No one goes to Hell by accident.  How the two interact is the province of theologians, and all we can do on the internet is just repeat what they've said.  No one is going to come along and 'figure it out.'  

The Catholic Dictionary defines Predestination..........................

In its widest sense, predestination coincides with Divine Providence and God’s government of the world. Guided by His infallible prescience of the future, God from eternity fore-ordained the events that occur in time, and thus destined all things beforehand to their appointed end. In its strict and theological sense, predestination signifies the supernatural providence of God, immutably decreeing and efficaciously promoting the eternal salvation of rational creatures. It implies two essential elements: God’s infallible foreknowledge (praescientia) of the future, and His immutable decree (decretum) of eternal happiness. God sincerely wills all rational creatures to be saved, and to that end He provides them with means at least remotely sufficient for the attainment of eternal salvation; yet He does not predestine every one to life eternal, but only those in whom He sees fulfilled the unalterable conditions laid down by Himself. “For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be made conformable to the image of his Son.” (Romans 8 ) These only are His elect, and of them no one is ever lost (John 10). In its full or adequate meaning, predestination refers to both grace and glory as a whole, and in this sense it is defined by Saint Thomas as “the foreordination of grace in the present, and of glory in the future.” It not only includes a divine election to glory as the end, but also to grace as the means, the vocation to faith, justification, and final perseverance inseparably connected with a happy death. It is with this adequate predestination that the real dogma of eternal election is exclusively concerned. Predestination is objectively certain and immutable; but without a special revelation to that effect, no one in this life can know for certain whether he is among the predestined. Hence the admonition of Saint Peter: “Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.” (2 Peter, 1)

That is short and to the point. That is not someones personal opinion as are most of the comments contributed here.

Even shorter is the second sentence which explains everything:

Guided by His infallible prescience of the future, God from eternity fore-ordained the events that occur in time, and thus destined all things beforehand to their appointed end.

Somewhere I read someone explaining that as God has already seen the movie, therefore he knows everything that is coming up. He does not have to change the movie, there are no surprises, no change. Just the same as if one of us had seen a movie, and all the others had not. The one would know everything that is coming from the beginning, and nothing need to be changed.

Here is St. Augustine:

Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]