Author Topic: Music - sinful waste of time? (Read 2320 times)

Vladimir · « **on:** April 20, 2011, 06:15:32 PM »

I was reading a book on the history of western music and it appears that many of the early Church fathers were of the opinion that music (particularly instrumental music) that was not used for liturgical/worship purposes was a waste of time and venially sinful. St. John Chrysostom also criticized elaborate instrumental music used for weddings.

Has this view changed?

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #1 on:** April 20, 2011, 06:43:29 PM »

Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 20, 2011, 06:45:20 PM »

Interesting post, the timing of it.

I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.

Music is evil, usually.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** April 20, 2011, 06:47:52 PM »

Quote from: PartyIsOver221

Interesting post, the timing of it.

I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.

Music is evil, usually.

If that's what you consider music, then hell yes it is!

Vladimir · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2011, 07:16:20 PM »

Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.

Chant evidently falls within the use of vocal music to praise God.

I'm not referring to popular music either.

I'm curious about what the Saints would have thought about the common practice of organists playing preludes/postludes for Mass. If they did not approve of liturgical musical extravegance (such as for weddings), what would they think of recreational music?

PartyIsOver221 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2011, 08:17:27 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: PartyIsOver221
Interesting post, the timing of it.

I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.

Music is evil, usually.

If that's what you consider music, then hell yes it is!

Yup, just some 80s hair metal ballads... and if you think that was bad, you should listen to what I used to listen to before my conversion..

I feel dirty after listening to those rock songs now though, definitely venial sin.

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #6 on:** April 20, 2011, 08:18:51 PM »

It depends what kind of music you're talking about. Heavy metal music is often sinful, particularly music from the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Eagles, etc. Alot of it depends on the artist more than the genre. You could have a generally harm-less genre such as classical or whatever and have an insane person with satanic beliefs singing the song.

So music itself isn't sinful, it's the kind you listen to that determines whether or not it's sinful.

Catholic Samurai · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2011, 10:00:55 PM »

Quote from: Vladimir

Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.

Chant evidently falls within the use of vocal music to praise God.

I'm not referring to popular music either.

I'm curious about what the Saints would have thought about the common practice of organists playing preludes/postludes for Mass. If they did not approve of liturgical musical extravegance (such as for weddings), what would they think of recreational music?

Someone told me that St.Alphonsus wasn't a big fan of the Polyphonic Mass on the grounds that it was too drawn out and overdone and took away too much attention from God, rather than inspiring the attendee to sentiments of piety.

Vladimir · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2011, 12:31:12 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Quote from: Vladimir
Quote from: Catholic Samurai

Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.

Chant evidently falls within the use of vocal music to praise God.

I'm not referring to popular music either.

I'm curious about what the Saints would have thought about the common practice of organists playing preludes/postludes for Mass. If they did not approve of liturgical musical extravegance (such as for weddings), what would they think of recreational music?

Someone told me that St.Alphonsus wasn't a big fan of the Polyphonic Mass on the grounds that it was too drawn out and overdone and took away too much attention from God, rather than inspiring the attendee to sentiments of piety.

Even then its arguable. Last All Soul's Day I heard a setting of the Requiem Aeternam that truly sounded divine. Palestrina's setting of Sicut Cervus (that many people will be hearing in the next weekend) brings tears to your eyes. Of course, some settings, while technically brilliant, fail to arouse any sentiment (except the admiration of a trained contrapunctalist perhaps).

For sake of this thread, I'm not interested in bringing modern rock/pop into the mix. I'm mainly concerned about what most people call classical music.

I'm really interested in what St. Alphonsus has to say if he ever wrote on music. I heard that he was a musical virtuoso himself.

EDIT: Its interesting that in the 17th century, many musicians theorized that music was the only earthly art that was present in Heaven.

Music is much, much more than sound. I've read that the planets and other natural objects vibrate in tones as well (see music of the spheres). Music in Oriental philosophy is even more important...

Zenith · « **Reply #9 on:** April 21, 2011, 12:32:30 AM »

I think it has a lot to do with what effect the music has on you. Does it stir the passions? Does it boost your ego? Does it hypnotise you like a drug or does it lift your spirit to God?

My taste in music definitely changed with discovering Tradition.

Vladimir · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2011, 12:42:46 AM »

Quote from: Zenith

I think it has a lot to do with what effect the music has on you. Does it stir the passions? Does it boost your ego? Does it hypnotise you like a drug or does it lift your spirit to God?

My taste in music definitely changed with discovering Tradition.

That's the thing though - of course music stirs the passions. Its so amazing - even playing the same musical notes in a different order arouses different passions in the listner. Why do the modes of the Ordinary of the Mass change throughout the liturgical year? They change to reflect the feeling of each season. There's a reason why Ubi Caritas moves people to tears - its the musical mode.

Its certainly a pleasing feeling of accomplishment after you perform a piece that you have worked hard on.

Generally, I don't buy into the idea that music is best when performed when in an "altered state of reality" or hynotized, etc. It takes great concentration and spiritual maturity to perform a piece of music well.

Should we not listen or perform music that makes us melancholy, etc then? I think of a line from a famous Chinese poet: "Don't play the flute when it makes your heart sad".

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:02:59 AM »

This is a tangent, but for anyone interested in music, I suggest the site prolobe.com.

Since I've started practicing my experience of listening to music has dramatically changed. I'm only on level 13 of 36 and I've been stuck for a while, but I am confident I will advance to a high level, and it really does make a huge difference.

Soldat fem de Dieu · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:10:09 AM »

From an old thread:

One of the most primal voices that deepens my soul. I have played that song for my Catholic friends, from the West, as well as friends from the East, and they are all so incredibly moved by her voice. I will play that CD as background music and everyone will stop what they are doing and ask who is singing. Sometimes they will have TEARS in their eyes and not know what "hit" them.

It just goes to show you the power of voice and music. It can transcend worldwide and touch the hearts and souls of every individual, Black, white, yellow, brown, Catholic, Muslim, Jєωιѕн.. If the singer sings a Catholic hymn, that makes the timbre/resonance even more powerful because he/she is touching the soul of a non believer who is listening which sinks into the very depth of their psyche and core/spirit. How profound.
The words of the song, "The Passion":

"Today, He was hung on a piece of wood, The Man who hung the world above water.... We kneel before your Passion o' Christ....We kneel before your Passion o' Christ."

Here is another Hymn sung by Fairouz called, "Good Friday":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=5hduXnCao4I

Soldat fem de Dieu · « **Reply #13 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:13:11 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: PartyIsOver221
Interesting post, the timing of it.

I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.

Music is evil, usually.

If that's what you consider music, then hell yes it is!

:roll-laugh1:

Soldat fem de Dieu · « **Reply #14 on:** April 21, 2011, 01:28:30 AM »

Quote from: Soldat fem de Dieu

From an old thread:

One of the most primal voices that deepens my soul. I have played that song for my Catholic friends, from the West, as well as friends from the East, and they are all so incredibly moved by her voice. I will play that CD as background music and everyone will stop what they are doing and ask who is singing. Sometimes they will have TEARS in their eyes and not know what "hit" them.

It just goes to show you the power of voice and music. It can transcend worldwide and touch the hearts and souls of every individual, Black, white, yellow, brown, Catholic, Muslim, Jєωιѕн.. If the singer sings a Catholic hymn, that makes the timbre/resonance even more powerful because he/she is touching the soul of a non believer who is listening which sinks into the very depth of their psyche and core/spirit. How profound.
The words of the song, "The Passion":

"Today, He was hung on a piece of wood, The Man who hung the world above water.... We kneel before your Passion o' Christ....We kneel before your Passion o' Christ."

Here is another Hymn sung by Fairouz called, "Good Friday":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=5hduXnCao4I

Correction, the words to the first song called, "The Passion (or Oh my Love)":

"Today, He hung from a piece of wood, the one who hung the world above water / A crown of thorns adorned the head of the king of angels / We kneel before your Passion, O Christ (repeated 3 times) / Show us your glorious resurrection"