Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vladimir on April 20, 2011, 06:15:32 PM
-
I was reading a book on the history of western music and it appears that many of the early Church fathers were of the opinion that music (particularly instrumental music) that was not used for liturgical/worship purposes was a waste of time and venially sinful. St. John Chrysostom also criticized elaborate instrumental music used for weddings.
Has this view changed?
-
Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.
-
Interesting post, the timing of it.
I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.
Music is evil, usually.
-
Interesting post, the timing of it.
I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.
Music is evil, usually.
If that's what you consider music, then hell yes it is!
-
Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.
Chant evidently falls within the use of vocal music to praise God.
I'm not referring to popular music either.
I'm curious about what the Saints would have thought about the common practice of organists playing preludes/postludes for Mass. If they did not approve of liturgical musical extravegance (such as for weddings), what would they think of recreational music?
-
Interesting post, the timing of it.
I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.
Music is evil, usually.
If that's what you consider music, then hell yes it is!
Yup, just some 80s hair metal ballads... and if you think that was bad, you should listen to what I used to listen to before my conversion..
I feel dirty after listening to those rock songs now though, definitely venial sin.
-
It depends what kind of music you're talking about. Heavy metal music is often sinful, particularly music from the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Eagles, etc. Alot of it depends on the artist more than the genre. You could have a generally harm-less genre such as classical or whatever and have an insane person with satanic beliefs singing the song.
So music itself isn't sinful, it's the kind you listen to that determines whether or not it's sinful.
-
Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.
Chant evidently falls within the use of vocal music to praise God.
I'm not referring to popular music either.
I'm curious about what the Saints would have thought about the common practice of organists playing preludes/postludes for Mass. If they did not approve of liturgical musical extravegance (such as for weddings), what would they think of recreational music?
Someone told me that St.Alphonsus wasn't a big fan of the Polyphonic Mass on the grounds that it was too drawn out and overdone and took away too much attention from God, rather than inspiring the attendee to sentiments of piety.
-
Considering we've had organs in the Church for quite a while, and Chant even longer, I'd say yes.
Chant evidently falls within the use of vocal music to praise God.
I'm not referring to popular music either.
I'm curious about what the Saints would have thought about the common practice of organists playing preludes/postludes for Mass. If they did not approve of liturgical musical extravegance (such as for weddings), what would they think of recreational music?
Someone told me that St.Alphonsus wasn't a big fan of the Polyphonic Mass on the grounds that it was too drawn out and overdone and took away too much attention from God, rather than inspiring the attendee to sentiments of piety.
Even then its arguable. Last All Soul's Day I heard a setting of the Requiem Aeternam that truly sounded divine. Palestrina's setting of Sicut Cervus (that many people will be hearing in the next weekend) brings tears to your eyes. Of course, some settings, while technically brilliant, fail to arouse any sentiment (except the admiration of a trained contrapunctalist perhaps).
For sake of this thread, I'm not interested in bringing modern rock/pop into the mix. I'm mainly concerned about what most people call classical music.
I'm really interested in what St. Alphonsus has to say if he ever wrote on music. I heard that he was a musical virtuoso himself.
EDIT: Its interesting that in the 17th century, many musicians theorized that music was the only earthly art that was present in Heaven.
Music is much, much more than sound. I've read that the planets and other natural objects vibrate in tones as well (see music of the spheres). Music in Oriental philosophy is even more important...
-
I think it has a lot to do with what effect the music has on you. Does it stir the passions? Does it boost your ego? Does it hypnotise you like a drug or does it lift your spirit to God?
My taste in music definitely changed with discovering Tradition.
-
I think it has a lot to do with what effect the music has on you. Does it stir the passions? Does it boost your ego? Does it hypnotise you like a drug or does it lift your spirit to God?
My taste in music definitely changed with discovering Tradition.
That's the thing though - of course music stirs the passions. Its so amazing - even playing the same musical notes in a different order arouses different passions in the listner. Why do the modes of the Ordinary of the Mass change throughout the liturgical year? They change to reflect the feeling of each season. There's a reason why Ubi Caritas moves people to tears - its the musical mode.
Its certainly a pleasing feeling of accomplishment after you perform a piece that you have worked hard on.
Generally, I don't buy into the idea that music is best when performed when in an "altered state of reality" or hynotized, etc. It takes great concentration and spiritual maturity to perform a piece of music well.
Should we not listen or perform music that makes us melancholy, etc then? I think of a line from a famous Chinese poet: "Don't play the flute when it makes your heart sad".
-
This is a tangent, but for anyone interested in music, I suggest the site prolobe.com.
Since I've started practicing my experience of listening to music has dramatically changed. I'm only on level 13 of 36 and I've been stuck for a while, but I am confident I will advance to a high level, and it really does make a huge difference.
-
From an old thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QCZc2A1p7Y&NR=1
One of the most primal voices that deepens my soul. I have played that song for my Catholic friends, from the West, as well as friends from the East, and they are all so incredibly moved by her voice. I will play that CD as background music and everyone will stop what they are doing and ask who is singing. Sometimes they will have TEARS in their eyes and not know what "hit" them.
It just goes to show you the power of voice and music. It can transcend worldwide and touch the hearts and souls of every individual, Black, white, yellow, brown, Catholic, Muslim, Jєωιѕн.. If the singer sings a Catholic hymn, that makes the timbre/resonance even more powerful because he/she is touching the soul of a non believer who is listening which sinks into the very depth of their psyche and core/spirit. How profound.
The words of the song, "The Passion":
"Today, He was hung on a piece of wood, The Man who hung the world above water.... We kneel before your Passion o' Christ....We kneel before your Passion o' Christ."
Here is another Hymn sung by Fairouz called, "Good Friday":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=5hduXnCao4I
-
Interesting post, the timing of it.
I was just listening to some Motley crue on youtube, no video on screen just music, and I felt that it was a waste of time though the beat was catchy. Low and behold, I go to the browser to view the video for one second, and its their album cover of headshot of Baal (or whoever the horned goat devil depiction is) with a "Crue" on his forehead.
Music is evil, usually.
If that's what you consider music, then hell yes it is!
:roll-laugh1:
-
From an old thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QCZc2A1p7Y&NR=1
One of the most primal voices that deepens my soul. I have played that song for my Catholic friends, from the West, as well as friends from the East, and they are all so incredibly moved by her voice. I will play that CD as background music and everyone will stop what they are doing and ask who is singing. Sometimes they will have TEARS in their eyes and not know what "hit" them.
It just goes to show you the power of voice and music. It can transcend worldwide and touch the hearts and souls of every individual, Black, white, yellow, brown, Catholic, Muslim, Jєωιѕн.. If the singer sings a Catholic hymn, that makes the timbre/resonance even more powerful because he/she is touching the soul of a non believer who is listening which sinks into the very depth of their psyche and core/spirit. How profound.
The words of the song, "The Passion":
"Today, He was hung on a piece of wood, The Man who hung the world above water.... We kneel before your Passion o' Christ....We kneel before your Passion o' Christ."
Here is another Hymn sung by Fairouz called, "Good Friday":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=5hduXnCao4I
Correction, the words to the first song called, "The Passion (or Oh my Love)":
"Today, He hung from a piece of wood, the one who hung the world above water / A crown of thorns adorned the head of the king of angels / We kneel before your Passion, O Christ (repeated 3 times) / Show us your glorious resurrection"
-
Anything may be used for good or for bad, the abuse of something does not negate its proper use, and therefore, I would not condemn music itself as being intrinsically wrong, but when it is used or composed towards a bad purpose, then, of course, that particular use of it would indeed be considered a sin, I suspect. However, I believe that so long as it is kept to its proper use, either liturgically, or in clean entertainment, that it is not directed towards sin.
I'm sure music was part of the wedding feast at cana, and I don't read of it being condemned.
-
Please listen to Sister marie keyrouz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAhvJVu6BH4&feature=related
then tell me whether that was a sinful waste of time ; )
-
I have restricted myself to listening for the most part only to liturgical chant for some time now. I do tend to experience most secular music as impeding my spiritual progress. I almost immediately notice that my senses rebel against the tranquility of my spirit when I listen to it, so I decided that I should move away from most of it.
I do not have a vast knowledge of what the fathers taught regarding this subject, though. It is interesting nevertheless.
With that I mean secular music that does not contain manifestly sinful concepts. Most of today's secular music is saturated with the vile spirit of satan anyway. Every traditional catholic knows he or she has to stay away from the latter.