Author Topic: Mortal Sin (Read 6156 times)

Alex117 · « **on:** February 19, 2013, 06:31:53 PM »

I think I need somebody to explain mortal sin to me. According to the Baltimore Catechism:

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To make a sin mortal three things are necessary: a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.

With a definition like that, it seems almost impossible to commit a mortal sin. Who would sufficiently reflect upon doing something wrong, say "Well, whatever", and then do it anyway with the full consent of their will? I could see a murderer reflecting upon killing their future victim and then going through with it anyway, but disobeying your parents, purposely missing Mass on Sunday, viewing pornography, and other grievous matters? Who would sufficiently reflect upon those things and then do them anyway with the full consent of their will? It's not like I would ever wake up one Sunday morning, not feel like getting out of bed, and then I'd lay there and sufficiently reflect upon my actions and then I would choose to spite God anyway in not going. It would moreso be like "I'm so tired, forget it," and then I would roll over and go back to sleep. Would that be a mortal sin? It seems like it, since it's pretty much the same thing, but according to the Catechism, it wouldn't be because I didn't sufficiently reflect upon my sin or do it with the full consent of my will (I was sleepy).

Is my understanding of mortal sin wrong? It all sounds very wrong to me.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2013, 06:33:42 PM »

Do you believe that people don't have free will?

That they're incapable of not making bad choices?

That's what it sounds like.

Alex117 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2013, 06:41:46 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Do you believe that people don't have free will?

That they're incapable of not making bad choices?

That's what it sounds like.

No, not at all - I make bad choices all the time. But "sufficient reflection" and "full consent of the will" are rather weighty terms. Me saying "Ah forget it" and rolling over in bed doesn't sound like "sufficient reflection" to me.

I've been under the impression ever since I've come back to Catholicism that I've been doing mortal sins left and right for years now, but one of my friend's said that they've never committed a mortal sin once (which shocked me), and then I went looking for it's definition in the Baltimore Catechism (which also shocked me).

I'm asking here if my interpretation of what was said in the Baltimore Catechism is correct.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2013, 06:45:28 PM »

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but one of my friend's said that they've never committed a mortal sin once

That's Novus Ordo garbage.

If you do something willingly you know is mortally wrong, that's full consent of the will and sufficient reflection.

They try the same garbage with marriages. They suggest that people today really didn't mean their vows if they don't want to keep them.

It's modernist sophistry.

Alex117 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2013, 06:55:17 PM »

"That's Novus Ordo garbage."
But they've never been in the Novus Ordo. They were raised as a traditional Catholic.

"If you do something willingly you know is mortally wrong, that's full consent of the will and sufficient reflection."
Tele, that sounds even more wrong than the definition I read from the Catechism. I think the Catechism purposefully says "full consent of the will" and "sufficient reflection" for a reason. If it had just said "consent of the will" and "reflection", I would agree with you completely, but it doesn't say that.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:05:36 PM »

Quote from: Alex117

"That's Novus Ordo garbage."
But they've never been in the Novus Ordo. They were raised as a traditional Catholic.

They aren't legit trads then. If there are trad priests telling people they haven't committed mortal sins then those trad priests are crypto-modernists.

As I said before, the same garbage is used to justify bogus annulments today.

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Tele, that sounds even more wrong than the definition I read from the Catechism. I think the Catechism purposefully says "full consent of the will"

Do you think you're not giving full consent of the will when you do something? That seems very, very presumptuous to me. In dreams perhaps, under the influence of intoxicants, or under extreme duress perhaps. In the course of ordinary events? No.

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and "sufficient reflection" for a reason. If it had just said "consent of the will" and "reflection", I would agree with you completely, but it doesn't say that.

Sufficient reflection means just that "sufficient." As in - "that's gravely wrong, I shouldn't do it"

An act on the spur of the moment, like a blasphemy one utters without intending it - a person hasn't sufficiently reflected.

Punching someone immediately in a moment of rage without having planned to?

That's not sufficient reflection,

etc.

Alex117 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:15:08 PM »

Perhaps you're right on all of your points (except for calling my friend a fake trad), as I don't have any sufficient arguments to give you in return. If you don't mind me saying though, I would still like to hear what others have to say about this subject, because my mind still doesn't feel like it has a solid grasp on mortal sin yet. Thanks for your input though, Tele.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:17:29 PM »

Quote from: Alex117

Perhaps you're right on all of your points (except for calling my friend a fake trad), as I don't have any sufficient arguments to give you in return. If you don't mind me saying though, I would still like to hear what others have to say about this subject, because my mind still doesn't feel like it has a solid grasp on mortal sin yet. Thanks for your input though, Tele.

If SSPX priests are telling people that they don't commit mortal sins because they never really give full consent of the will or think over the matter properly then they're defecting to modernism.

Koch Preuss Moral Theology

Philomene Marie · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:18:06 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote
but one of my friend's said that they've never committed a mortal sin once

That's Novus Ordo garbage.

If you do something willingly you know is mortally wrong, that's full consent of the will and sufficient reflection.

They try the same garbage with marriages. They suggest that people today really didn't mean their vows if they don't want to keep them.

It's modernist sophistry.

Um exucuse me Telesphorus, but I was the friend who said that, and yes I can proudly say that I've never committed a mortal sin. It is possible to be under the age of 20 and have avoided enough occasions of sin to where you haven't committed a mortal sin. I'm sorry you might not be as fortunate.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:21:03 PM »

Quote from: Philomene Marie

Um exucuse me Telesphorus but I was the friend who said that, and yes I can proudly say that I've never committed a mortal sin.

Do you mean you've never committed an act that was gravely sinful objectively? Or do you believe you didn't have subjective culpability for it?

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It is possible to be under the age of 20 and have avoided enough occasions of sin to where you haven't committed a mortal sin. I'm sorry you might not be as fortunate.

Yes, I'm sorry too I haven't been as fortunate, but I assumed that Alex meant the person was free of it because of "full consent of the will" and "sufficient reflection" being lacking, not the absence of grave matter.

Philomene Marie · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:23:17 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Philomene Marie
Um exucuse me Telesphorus but I was the friend who said that, and yes I can proudly say that I've never committed a mortal sin.

Do you mean you've never committed one objectively speaking? Or do you believe you didn't have subjective culpability for it?

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It is possible to be under the age of 20 and have avoided enough occasions of sin to where you haven't committed a mortal sin. I'm sorry you might not be as fortunate.

Yes, I'm sorry too I haven't been as fortunate, but Alex said the person was free of it because of "full consent of the will" and "sufficient reflection" being lacking, not the absence of grave matter.

Objectively speaking I've never committed one, but yes, I do believe it would be possible to. I just hope and pray that by the grace of God I will be strong enough to live my life without committing one.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:27:59 PM »

Quote from: Philomene Marie

Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Philomene Marie
Um exucuse me Telesphorus but I was the friend who said that, and yes I can proudly say that I've never committed a mortal sin.

Do you mean you've never committed one objectively speaking? Or do you believe you didn't have subjective culpability for it?

Quote
It is possible to be under the age of 20 and have avoided enough occasions of sin to where you haven't committed a mortal sin. I'm sorry you might not be as fortunate.

Yes, I'm sorry too I haven't been as fortunate, but Alex said the person was free of it because of "full consent of the will" and "sufficient reflection" being lacking, not the absence of grave matter.

Objectively speaking I've never committed one, but yes, I do believe it would be possible to. I just hope and pray that by the grace of God I will be strong enough to live my life without committing one.

Well I hope you're praying for us Philomene. It's a wonderful grace you have, and it gives us all hope to hear of it. God bless you.

I took Alex to be saying the people claiming to have never committed a mortal sin because they never fully consented to such acts and never reflected sufficiently on what they were doing.

Philomene Marie · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:30:09 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Philomene Marie
Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Philomene Marie
Um exucuse me Telesphorus but I was the friend who said that, and yes I can proudly say that I've never committed a mortal sin.

Do you mean you've never committed one objectively speaking? Or do you believe you didn't have subjective culpability for it?

Quote
It is possible to be under the age of 20 and have avoided enough occasions of sin to where you haven't committed a mortal sin. I'm sorry you might not be as fortunate.

Yes, I'm sorry too I haven't been as fortunate, but Alex said the person was free of it because of "full consent of the will" and "sufficient reflection" being lacking, not the absence of grave matter.

Objectively speaking I've never committed one, but yes, I do believe it would be possible to. I just hope and pray that by the grace of God I will be strong enough to live my life without committing one.

Well I hope you're praying for us Philomene. God bless you.

I took Alex to be saying the people claiming to have never committed a mortal sin neither fully consented to such acts nor reflected sufficiently on what they were doing.

Thank you Tele! And yes, I do pray for all of you every night.

Alex117 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:53:33 PM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

Quote from: Alex117
Perhaps you're right on all of your points (except for calling my friend a fake trad), as I don't have any sufficient arguments to give you in return. If you don't mind me saying though, I would still like to hear what others have to say about this subject, because my mind still doesn't feel like it has a solid grasp on mortal sin yet. Thanks for your input though, Tele.

If SSPX priests are telling people that they don't commit mortal sins because they never really give full consent of the will or think over the matter properly then they're defecting to modernism.

Koch Preuss Moral Theology

Thanks for the link, Tele. You were right after all. Who wrote the book though? Google Books says "Anton Koch" but I couldn't find anything about him on the Internet.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2013, 07:57:09 PM »

Quote from: Alex117

Quote from: Telesphorus
Quote from: Alex117
Perhaps you're right on all of your points (except for calling my friend a fake trad), as I don't have any sufficient arguments to give you in return. If you don't mind me saying though, I would still like to hear what others have to say about this subject, because my mind still doesn't feel like it has a solid grasp on mortal sin yet. Thanks for your input though, Tele.

If SSPX priests are telling people that they don't commit mortal sins because they never really give full consent of the will or think over the matter properly then they're defecting to modernism.

Koch Preuss Moral Theology

Thanks for the link, Tele. You were right after all. Who wrote the book though? Google Books says "Anton Koch" but I couldn't find anything about him on the Internet.

The page prior discusses "full advertence"

Arthur Preuss was a German American Catholic who published "Fortnightly Review" and was the publisher.

At the beginning there is an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat.