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Author Topic: Morality of Combat Sports  (Read 2523 times)

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Offline Caminus

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Morality of Combat Sports
« on: November 26, 2011, 04:29:24 PM »
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  • Does anyone possess information regarding the morality of combat sports such as boxing or what is currently known as "MMA" wherein the same general principles would apply?  I remember seeing a doctoral thesis on St. Thomas and the sport of boxing, but cannot find it anywhere online.  What say the moral theologians on fighting sports?  What general principles from the theologians can be applied to modern mixed martial arts competitions?  I can see it under several different aspects and have not been able to form a certain judgment on the matter.  Fr. Peter Scott scorned the notion, but I am not yet convinced it is intrinsically evil or immoral.  


    Offline sedetrad

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 10:17:18 AM »
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  • I haven't read any Church related materials on this but I would say that MMA is much safer than boxing. You can tap out in MMA much like wrestling whereas in boxing you can sustain serious brain damage from the repeated blows to the head. Their actually starting to find from brain scans that professional football players also sustain substantial brain damage over their career. As far as overall usefulness in combat, I would think mma is probably more worthwhile. I have a problem with modern arena sports in general that have become idols to the masses, but I think MMA would be very useful for those looking to learn how to fight and defend themselves. Its an interesting question.


    Offline gunfighter

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 10:59:57 AM »
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  • Regarding self defense, MMA is good training, but it is still a sport.  I took a Center Axis Relock(shooting technique) course run by a an Aikido instructor.  He made the point that many of the locks don't work on the street.  Biting an arm or leg will get someone to release the lock.  MMA also focuses on ground fighting.  It is never good to be on the ground in a street fight.

    In my opinion, one of the best techniques is close quarter defense used by Spec War operators.  It is mainly focused on striking and using body positioning to defend against blows.  It is fast and brutal.  It also incorporates transitioning to weapons.  You are also taught control techniques for restraining people.  

    Offline Caoimhin P Connell

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 12:24:20 PM »
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  • I guess I would have to turn the question around and ask:  Why would it be immoral?”

    Caoimhín

    Offline Caoimhin P Connell

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 12:27:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: gunfighter
    It is never good to be on the ground in a street fight.


    There's an understatement!  I hate the defensive posture currently being taught.

    Caoimhín
    Forever Blue

    AMDG


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 01:41:46 PM »
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  • I think it comes down to the severity of risk to health and the to the health of the ones you're fighting weighed against the advantages of practicing the sport.

    The best place to look up information on the morality of combat sports would be to read what the saints taught about the medieval tournaments.

    I know much of that sort of thing was condemned, especially when many such events were "pickup" fights between groups of knights, often with deadly consequences.

    Offline Diego

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 02:27:46 PM »
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  • I would argue that "combat sports" is an oxymoron—no mere academic distinction, since, as gunfighter (the guy I don't want guarding my "6"—ahem) noted, the sporterized arts are not combat arts. Most of what has arrived in the USA is a very diluted sport bearing little relation to true combat arts and of little practical use in defending innocent life against all but the most inept of attackers.

    The other side of the coin is that the true combat arts attract power seekers, many (almost all?) of whom concurrently seek the diabolical arts.

    Sport or combat art?  I'd vote for combat art under a practicing Catholic. Barring that, I'd have my eyes wide open and stay in a state of grace to keep the demons away.

    That said, I am pleasantly surprised to learn that trads are interested in these things because there will be plenty of innocent lives to defend. As far as Catholic morality goes, I can see no sin in learning how to protect innocent life, learning the bona fide combat arts. So, it is somewhat ironic that it is actually the brain-damaging sports that carry moral culpability.  How can you defend the morality of a mere sport that damages the temple of the Holy Ghost and is not directed at defending innocent life? You can't.

    Offline Caminus

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 05:35:31 PM »
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  • Tele brings up the pertinent question, the morality of exposing oneself to serious bodily injury.  The Church severely condemned duelling, for example, because it was an immoral custom.  But fighting competitions do not attain to such extremes; there are rules that protect the fighters.  Serious injury is rare and such an occasion can be made remote by level of expertise.  

    The motive for entering into such an endeavor also factors in to the morality of the activity.  A man consumed with self-love, hatred and the socio-pathic need to inflict harm on others is evidently objectively evil, whereas a man who enters into this sport to help support his family has a laudable motive.  

    As to the practical comments on fighting, they usually end up on the ground and if you don't know what to do on the ground you will lose.  Thus, the focus on ground technique.  This is especially true when you end up on your back.  Without training, one panics and loses the ability to engage in the fight.  

    I have previous 10 years of experience in Tae Kwon Do/wrestling and enjoy combat arts (I probably would have become a Catholic Knight when Christendom was alive and well).  I have the spirit of a fighter for a just cause, either naturally or supernaturally.  The reason I present this question is because we are in need supplemental income and I possess an skill that could possibly help.  Whether or not I can attain to the status of being a paid fighter is questionable as I am currently out of shape and 35 years old.

    The environment wherein these comptetitions takes place is certainly satanic, but I consider any arena sport environment satanic to some degree.  Of course, I consider modern offices as satanic as well, or anywhere unbelievers set up their organizations, so any environment where I may work is less than desireable, but I refuse to concede that one necessarily consents to such evil simply because one works therein.        


    Offline Canute

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 07:52:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    Does anyone possess information regarding the morality of combat sports such as boxing or what is currently known as "MMA" wherein the same general principles would apply?  I remember seeing a doctoral thesis on St. Thomas and the sport of boxing, but cannot find it anywhere online.  What say the moral theologians on fighting sports?  What general principles from the theologians can be applied to modern mixed martial arts competitions?  I can see it under several different aspects and have not been able to form a certain judgment on the matter.  Fr. Peter Scott scorned the notion, but I am not yet convinced it is intrinsically evil or immoral.  


    It just so happens that I read a long article this past week by a football player who described all his injuries and the attitude that pro football now takes towards them. It came up in a conversation with a priest. who brought up boxing and said that he had read a doctoral thesis about it that was published by Catholic University. You could probably order a copy of it from their library. Good luck.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 09:14:56 PM »
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  • As Tele noted, the main question should be whether or not you are putting your health (and even more-so -- your life) at risk. MMA and boxing to me just seem like ways to do damage to your bodies. One could say the same about racing. If you choose to get in a racecar and go 200 mph, then you're doing a very dumb thing regardless of the safety mechanics.

    Quote from: sedetrad
    You can tap out in MMA much like wrestling whereas in boxing you can sustain serious brain damage from the repeated blows to the head.


    You can sustain blows to the head in MMA, too. Perhaps not to the same extent, but it's very possible. Wrestling is fake, though even that I find to be rather stupid.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #10 on: November 27, 2011, 09:34:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
     The reason I present this question is because we are in need supplemental income and I possess an skill that could possibly help.  Whether or not I can attain to the status of being a paid fighter is questionable as I am currently out of shape and 35 years old.


    The risks (not just physical, but financial, potential medical bills) would not likely be commensurate with the rewards, given your age and physical condition.




    Offline Caminus

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 10:38:41 PM »
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  • Good point.  I don't necessarily like the idea, working out and training takes alot of work and I don't know if I'm that committed.  Maybe it could be a form of penance as well.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Morality of Combat Sports
    « Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 10:52:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    Good point.  I don't necessarily like the idea, working out and training takes alot of work and I don't know if I'm that committed.  Maybe it could be a form of penance as well.


    There's nothing wrong with getting in shape and practicing.  But the people who compete for money are probably very good, tough, and probably capable of giving a serious beating.

    I can swing pretty hard when I punch, I have long arms, I'm naturally muscular.  I might be able to knock out 90% of the average guys I see around if I could land a good punch.  But I'm also fairly certain I wouldn't last a round in the ring with any real fighter.

    I suppose if you practice and train the thing to do would be to ask the opinion of an expert what your chances are.