Author Topic: Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham  (Read 35545 times)

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Offline LaramieHirsch

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Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
« Reply #300 on: January 22, 2017, 02:52:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Immaculata001

    You engage in a lot of name-calling and reflexively casting yourself as a victim or martyr.


    And yet...

    Quote

    Both Black and White Americans cannot conceive of reality outside of their racial indoctrination...

    the reflexive antipathy that White American traditionalists feel for Blacks...

    I think there's a saying that "Every American is a temporarily embarrassed millionaire."

    The American "Catholic" obsession...

    singular faith bolstered by a Catholic culture and history -- this happens OUTSIDE of America...

    But the average Catholic, particularly in America, won't...

    as obsessed with race as Americans...



    ...you've shown yourself to be actively snobbish towards Americans.  How hypocritical and elitist.  

    Your passive-aggressive accusations of white supremacy continue, in spite of evidence to the contrary.  I do believe that you are incapable of talking about race with any white person unless they are carrying a banner alongside you, screaming "They're a supremacist!"  You lack the ability to make distinctions between different kinds of people.

    Also,

    Quote
    For those reading these types of conversations, please beware: these people are typically not really practicing Catholicism. They have no interior conversion.


    more presumption.  You're actually going to guess what's in the hearts of people on the other side of a computer screen.  

    You seem to show yourself as the self-righteous supremacist.  Your sweeping generalizations and blindness to what's being said to you is typical of this century.  You cannot talk with someone, only at them.  

    To paraphrase John Wright: The past is hated and forgotten, reason lobotomized so that we are all hysterics, debate deafened, truth blinded, and rigorous thinking outshouted by mobs grown drunk on self-righteousness.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Immaculata001

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #301 on: January 22, 2017, 03:32:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    I do believe that you are incapable of talking about race with any white person unless they are carrying a banner alongside you, screaming "They're a supremacist!"  You lack the ability to make distinctions between different kinds of people.


     :jester:

    This is ridiculous -- you're just ridiculous. Americans, Black and White, are obsessed by race but there may be quite few who are actual supremacists. Yes, I do believe you're one of them. The lingo you use (Example:"coalburner") is pretty singularly found in certain circles of political thought. You just want to have the benefit of not being considered a White Supremacist because you're affiliation isn't formal or committed.

    Americans, by and large, have a simplistic and infantile perspective on everything. This is the result a radical capitalism/consumerist brainwashing (which leads people to think and act based on impulse, divorced from a historical or rational context) and an anti-intellectual slant. I stand by that assessment without any guilt or shame; almost all of the world sees Americans in the same light.
    "But 'tis strange:
    And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
    The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
    Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
    In deepest consequence.." Banquo, from Shakespeare's Macbeth


    Offline Immaculata001

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #302 on: January 22, 2017, 03:52:26 PM »
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  • But let's test your assertion:

    Quote
    I do believe that you are incapable of talking about race with any white person unless they are carrying a banner alongside you, screaming "They're a supremacist!"  You lack the ability to make distinctions between different kinds of people.


    Very well.

    So this would mean, according to you, that if French people who support Le Pen and Front Nationale explicitly state that they want to 1) preserve the distinct culture and heritage of French people, 2) stop the (deliberate) invasion of Muslims, particularly on the grounds that Islam is a barrier to assimilation and erodes traditional French culture and values, 3) promote or even demand that all French citizens identify with one, unified, traditional French culture rather than a multi-cultural, overtly multiracial society, I will deem them White Supremacists? You're wrong. I believe that all people should have the right to preserve their cultural identity. Likewise, I don't really support White settlers in South Africa and their previously separatist aims, because the Africans have a right to preserve their cultural identity.

    My problem with Americans is that the problem was pretty consciously created through slavery, motivated by greed (they imported the Africans against their will). Then, they forcibly segregated them, which led them to be so isolated they now have  a counter-culture or anti-culture and a profound inferiority complex. After forced segregation, how can one now be angry that they can't or won't assimilate?

    Further, Americans don't have an ancient, distinct, unified cultural identity like the French or the Bantus. There's little to preserve.

    Do you now understand "distinctions between different kinds of people"?
    "But 'tis strange:
    And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
    The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
    Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
    In deepest consequence.." Banquo, from Shakespeare's Macbeth

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #303 on: January 23, 2017, 12:15:43 PM »
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  • What's ridiculous and infantile is a woman wrongfully castigating someone for supposedly being against one group--all the while, she openly and "without any guilt or shame" puts down another group.

    I have not used the word "coalburner."  That's not a word I use.  So you're either lying or you're sloppy.  And if it's the latter, that's proof you haven't been reading a single thing I've said, as you're far too interested in your own personal snobbish narrative.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline Immaculata001

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #304 on: January 23, 2017, 04:11:31 PM »
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  • You explicitly stated that you were motivated by your resentment of the King holiday in reviving the thread; the problem is that the King holiday is secular and completely unrelated to the practice of Catholicism.

    But what you did to "fight back" against what you perceive as leftist propaganda (and frankly, the King holiday actually was propaganda) is encourage debate about the supposed inferiority or "accursed" status of all Blacks, via the Curse of Ham.

    Why would it be appropriate to characterize all Blacks with extremely pejorative terms if your problem was with a secular holiday in a Protestant, radically capitalist nation? The issue is exacerbated by the fact that a lot of Catholics who would be open to traditional morality, if not traditionalism, are Black or non-White. You're encouraging Whites to engage in a dialogue that vilifies and demonizes people you cannot possibly know and creating enmity between Catholics. Your post encourages pride among Whites because they can now feel superior to supposedly accursed Blacks . It scandalizes non-Whites and makes them question both traditionalists and Church teaching, which you have completely distorted.

    This has an effect in traditionalist parishes and associations. Traditionalists who are incidentally White Supremacists believe that their extreme antipathy is cloaked when they encounter non-Whites -- this is truly impossible. You cannot believe that someone is intellectually inferior, physically hideous and disgusting, accursed, innately morally depraved, and corrosive to other actual human beings and treat them with fraternal love -- you think you are, but anyone who will interact with you  picks up on it because humans are necessarily social. People pick up on social cues and unarticulated hostility. Go and ask a Black or Mexican priest at a traditionalist parish in America...

    If a traditionalist is incidentally a White Supremacist, they conceive of Catholicism as a "White" religion (incredibly insane -- how can religion have a race?), so you don't consider the implications of your arguments. But Catholicism is not a collection of inert abstractions but is actually LIVED and often COMMUNALLY. This is what I mean by a lack of INTERIOR CONVERSION: an incapacity to consider how Catholic principles impact our actions and the implications thereof.

    There's a reason we're not to have premarital sex. There's a reason we should not be violent or wrathful. There's a reason we don't steal. There's a reason we cannot harbor profound antipathy to people because of their race or ethnicity.



    -----

    I don't like this sort of conversation because it's ugly, but someone must say something because your posts are veering into the territory of public sin and scandal. For Catholics who are not White who are reading this and partial to tradition, my advice is this: practice Catholicism and love God, but STAY AWAY from the people, for your own good. They will shock, scandalize, and alienate you and that's exactly how the devil wants it (although if you're in a predominantly Catholic country in the Americas or Europe, you'll be just fine... oh the irony)...
    "But 'tis strange:
    And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
    The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
    Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
    In deepest consequence.." Banquo, from Shakespeare's Macbeth


    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #305 on: January 23, 2017, 10:44:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Immaculata001
    There's a reason we cannot harbor profound antipathy to people because of their race or ethnicity.


    Or their nation for that matter.   :rolleyes:

    Quote from: Immaculata001
    You explicitly stated that you were motivated by your resentment of the King holiday


    Black History Month approaches.  I have discussed black history.

    Quote from: Immaculata001

    ...encourage debate about the supposed inferiority or "accursed" status of all Blacks, via the Curse of Ham...

    ...Why would it be appropriate to characterize all Blacks with extremely pejorative terms...

    ...You cannot believe that someone is intellectually inferior, physically hideous and disgusting, accursed, innately morally depraved, and corrosive to other actual human beings and treat them with fraternal love...


    I have not said any of these things.  You're projecting these accusations onto me.  You've read nothing I've stated.  

    "Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct." - Aristotle

    Quote from: Immaculata001
    I don't like this sort of conversation because it's ugly, but someone must say something because your posts are veering into the territory of public sin and scandal. For Catholics who are not White who are reading this and partial to tradition, my advice is this: practice Catholicism and love God, but STAY AWAY from the people, for your own good. They will shock, scandalize, and alienate you and that's exactly how the devil wants it (although if you're in a predominantly Catholic country in the Americas or Europe, you'll be just fine... oh the irony)...


    So, you like to specifically label white Traditionalist Catholics as racists?  Layered over with more hate for Americans, of course.  You're pouring out blanket statements and generalities of your own.  What a double standard.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #306 on: January 23, 2017, 11:13:28 PM »
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  • For everyone else reading this thread who have no interest in bantering and want to know what's next, I intend to take a look--perhaps another short series--at the Tower of Babel.  The article posts will be over at my blog, as usual.  

    I anticipate having a post on this up within a few days.  

    I have two (maybe three) more parts for the Ham series, however.  I want to have a 4th part that covers Ham from Islamic and rabbinic sources--simply to have this material up as a resource (I place no stock in it, other than historical).  In fact, it might even split off into two additional parts (#4 and #5).  The last part in the Ham series that I want is to do a brief review on David Goldberg's book on this topic, who has done more research on this topic than anyone on the record.  
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #307 on: January 24, 2017, 10:59:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    For everyone else reading this thread who have no interest in bantering and want to know what's next, I intend to take a look--perhaps another short series--at the Tower of Babel.  The article posts will be over at my blog, as usual.  
    Thank you for your contributions thus far... looking forward to further installments.


    Offline rum

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #308 on: January 24, 2017, 12:53:42 PM »
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  • Laramie, I read the three articles.

    Fr. Meagher was also Doctor of Divinity, awarded such by Pope Leo XIII (the only American to receive the honor). St. Pope Pius X granted him a private chapel in Long Island City. He was also, maybe not ironically, a relative of T.F. Meagher, a Brigadier General in the Union Army.

    The Church has sanctioned slavery at times, but not recently. For the slave class in the Jew West, the Industrial Revolution made slavery inessential, so I'm a bit skeptical of the claim that evolving moral goodness is the reason it was discontinued.

    Pope Paul III is known for Sublimis Deus, but he sanctioned slavery afterwards.

    Popes issued papal grants to enslave enemies of Christians. St. Thomas Aquinas writes that it's permissible to enslave Jews.

    For the Pope Pius IX and Martin affair you could have just quoted my post, as I haven't seen anyone else notice this contradiction in my research. In fact it's the only post in the thread that's exhibited new research into the question.

    The figures you quote don't have the best pedigree:

    Bar Hebræus (Syrian) was a Monophysite and was also the son of a Jewish physician. -- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02294a.htm

    Ibn al-Tayyib (Arab) was a Nestorian.

    Ishodad of Merv (Syrian) was a Nestorian.

    Eutychius (Egyptian Arab), according to New Advent:

    "The author states that he has compiled his history only from the Bible and reliable authorities. It contains, however, a great number of strange and improbable additions to Biblical and profane history not found in any other source." --http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05639a.htm

    St. Ephraem the Syrian is an exception. He was declared a Doctor of the Church in 1920, so that gives his teaching more weight.

    The first quote from St. Jerome doesn't mention the Curse of Ham, though it suggests it by claiming those with black skin have wicked souls. The quote that does mention the curse doesn't mention blacks.

    What I do know is that a Catholic can maintain that the Curse of Ham applies to blacks and not be excommunicated, and can even be made a Doctor of the Church, a Doctor of Divinity and a Pope! So it seems it's one of those subjects on which the Church allows different interpretations.

    Slavery and the Catholic Church by John Maxwell (published in 1975) is probably worth reading. I've read pieces of it, but should go through it.

    anthonyflood.com/maxwellslaverycatholicchurch.pdf

    It's also worth reading the Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #309 on: January 24, 2017, 11:58:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: rum

    The Church has sanctioned slavery at times, but not recently. For the slave class in the Jew West, the Industrial Revolution made slavery inessential, so I'm a bit skeptical of the claim that evolving moral goodness is the reason it was discontinued.


    Perhaps.  

    My interest in this was not slavery, per se.  Actually, I simply wanted to explore the tradition of this story through Christian thought as far back as I could.  I wasn't interested in the slavery aspect, the "genetic inferiority aspect" (which Immaculata001 keeps assigning as my motive), or even any kind of official Church stance on black people.  

    My interest was Christian historical, which is why I didn't start looking at Islamic or Jewish sources.

    *** My main takeaway was that God, for His reasons, decided that men would be different.  He chose to make men different, and later (as seen at Babel), he would even separate them Himself. ***

    I think this is an important lesson in this day and age, as yes, there's lots of race baiting in society.  And so, perhaps understanding the genesis of it all, we can know why things are the way they are, why our situations across the globe were made the way they were made, what to hope for, what to expect, and what to think of the overall picture when we step back from the mosaic.


    Quote from: rum

    For the Pope Pius IX and Martin affair you could have just quoted my post, as I haven't seen anyone else notice this contradiction in my research.
     

    Sorry!  I had to look into it myself.  If I hadn't, I wouldn't have found that interesting story about that bishop.  

     
    Quote from: rum

    The figures you quote don't have the best pedigree


    True.  Again, it was more of a historical examination.  I was looking for the thoughts within the Christian community of the Ham topic during that particular time.  I wasn't interested in ironing out an official Church position.  This idea that Ham's descendants populated Africa goes back quite a ways.  In fact, I failed to cite Moses' wife, Zipporah, who was a Kushite.  But I mentioned her later in the first post about Babel.



    Quote from: rum
    What I do know is that a Catholic can maintain that the Curse of Ham applies to blacks and not be excommunicated, and can even be made a Doctor of the Church, a Doctor of Divinity and a Pope! So it seems it's one of those subjects on which the Church allows different interpretations.


    Precisely.  You can even have an opinion of the Ham Curse and not be a white supremacist, contrary to the opinion of those who are permanently aggrieved haters of nations.

    Your books sound interesting.  But I think that once I'm done with my several series I have planned out, I'll be done with the subject for another year.  Though, I'll be putting those books on my list for further reading.  

    I've been reading David Goldberg's The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (Jews, Christians, and Muslims from the Ancient to the Modern World)  He's Jewish, of course, and so he tends to give greatest credence to the Talmud and other rabbinical sources.  Though his conclusions are disjointed, I find the man did a lot of excellent research.

    For whatever reason, this book is in my wishlist now:  Ancient Post-Flood History by Ken Johnson.  The guy is Protestant.  But maybe it's a worthwhile read?  Maybe I was halfway asleep when I added it to the wishlist.  I love reading about the early era of mankind.  It's always fascinated me since I was a kid.

    Your last book recommendation looks DOUBLY interesting, as it was put together by the Historical Research Department of the Nation of Islam.  I'm quite interested in that one, to be sure.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle

    Offline rum

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    Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Curse of Ham
    « Reply #310 on: January 25, 2017, 03:36:29 PM »
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  • The Secret Relationship between Blacks and Jews uses only Jewish sources. Most of the books cited were written by Jews for Jewish eyes only, i.e. Jewish Historical Societies, and not for Barnes and Noble.


     

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