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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: forlorn on June 01, 2018, 07:23:00 PM
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It does not seem fair that people should be created only to be damned before they ever live a day, and yet it's my understanding that's what happens.
I've hears stories of ill babies miraculously surviving just long enough to be baptised and then dying, saved. And it seems arbitrary to me that some babies get taken from this world by no fault of the mother, before she gets a chance to baptise them, and others live just long enough to be saved despite neither being any more deserving than the other(as they aren't even physically capable of sin yet, nevermind reason). And yet that's what happens.
Don't assume for a moment that I'm calling God injust or unmerciful, I'm just having trouble understanding the rationale behind why those who never got a chance to be baptised should be punished for it. I know God cannot err or do anything unrighteous, so surely there is an explanation out there. I just haven't found it.
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It can be quite difficult to come to terms with these things, but I think it can be good to remember that at the end of the day, life just isn’t fair.
My mother was the most devout Protestant I have ever met, and died in that state, firmly rejecting the Catholic Church. As someone who converted after this, how do you deal with the fact that it just isn’t fair? Because it’s not. When in reality, we all deserve hell, but only by a free gift from God called grace can we ever save our souls. He gave us free will, and that was the greatest and most terrible gift He could give, because we are free to love God, as we are meant to, but He also gave us the terrible gift of being able to reject Him.
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Forlorn, of course you realise that nothing is arbitrary for God. I don't believe that God punishes children who have no chance of baptism. There are even more of these that we realise, sadly as a result of abortive contraception without the mother ever realising she has been pregnant.
I believe the live in a happy state which we do not understand.
We do not know what the outcome would have been for any child in the circuмstance of his survival to live out his life. Do we know if that child would have lived a sinful life? Been condemned to hellfire and taken others with him. We don't know.
Just a few thoughts..
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Limbo is a teaching of the Church. It's a state of perfect natural happiness, more than anyone could ever have in this life.
What these infants lose is only the beatific vision, but the beatific vision is a SUPERNATURAL state of happiness that is beyond our natural capacity to understand, and so the human being does not feel "deprived" by not having it. Nobody deserves the beatific vision.
It's very likely that the reason God took them in this state is because they would have otherwise grown up and ended up in hell. Instead, he gave them eternal natural happiness.
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Don't assume for a moment that I'm calling God injust or unmerciful, I'm just having trouble understanding the rationale behind why those who never got a chance to be baptised should be punished for it.
They are NOT "punished" by any stretch of the imagination.
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My mother was the most devout Protestant I have ever met, and died in that state, firmly rejecting the Catholic Church. As someone who converted after this, how do you deal with the fact that it just isn’t fair? Because it’s not.
No, there's nothing ever not "fair" about God. People unfortunately have this strange idea of hell, where an extremely devout Protestant is standing right next to Joe Stalin burning in the same intense fires ... with the same demons bouncing back and forth equally tormenting them both. In one of the Church's teachings regarding no salvation outside the Church, she makes it clear that the sufferings in hell are proportional to one's sinfulness. Consequently, people who live naturally virtuous and even devout lives probably suffer very little if any ... probably little more than they might in this life, perhaps living in some kind of "happy hunting ground". I personally believe that there are many people who, while they are not in a state of PERFECT happiness, as in Limbo, still enjoy a measure of happiness in eternity and live in a state very close to that of Limbo. If they naturally tried to serve God during their lives, they're not suddenly going to be transformed into these raging demonic entities cursing God for all eternity. As we live, so do we die ... and spend eternity.
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It is impossible for us to understand the mind of God; just as it is impossible for us to look at the sun without being blinded by it. Our human eyes have limitations, so do our intellects. We simply do not have the ability to understand God's motives, while we are here on earth.
However, something we can be certain of, is that God is NOT unjust.
From Romans, Chapter 9:
14 What should we say, then? That God (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5217) is unjust? Out of the question!
15 For speaking to Moses, he said: I am gracious to those to whom I am gracious and I take pity on those on whom I take pity.
16 So it is not a matter (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=7732) of what any person (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9193) wants or what any person (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9193) does, but only of God (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5217) having mercy.
17 Scripture says to Pharaoh: I raised you up for this reason, to display my power in you and to have my name talked of throughout the world.
18 In other words, if God (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=5217) wants to show mercy on someone, he does so, and if he wants to harden someone's heart, he does so.
19 Then you will (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=12332) ask me, 'How then can he ever blame anyone, since no one can oppose his will?'
20 But you -- who do you think you, a human being, are, to answer back to God? Something that was made, can it say to its maker: why did you make me this shape?
21 A potter surely has the right (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=10046) over his clay to make out of the same lump either a pot for special use or one for ordinary (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=8760) use.
22 But suppose that God, although all the time (https://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=11571) he wanted to reveal his retribution and demonstrate his power, has with great patience gone on putting up with those who are the instruments of his retribution and designed to be destroyed;
23 so that he may make known the glorious riches ready for the people who are the instruments of his faithful love and were long ago prepared for that glory.
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It does not seem fair that people should be created only to be damned before they ever live a day, and yet it's my understanding that's what happens.
I've hears stories of ill babies miraculously surviving just long enough to be baptized and then dying, saved. And it seems arbitrary to me that some babies get taken from this world by no fault of the mother, before she gets a chance to baptize them, and others live just long enough to be saved despite neither being any more deserving than the other (as they aren't even physically capable of sin yet, never mind reason). And yet that's what happens.
Don't assume for a moment that I'm calling God injust or unmerciful, I'm just having trouble understanding the rationale behind why those who never got a chance to be baptised should be punished for it. I know God cannot err or do anything unrighteous, so surely there is an explanation out there. I just haven't found it.
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Any would-be mother experiencing a miscarriage has the opportunity to baptize the emission thereby expressing her intention with sincere action. The power is in our hands, if we would only act according to simple faith.
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The unbaptized who die with only original/venial sin on their souls go to Limbo, not hell. Limbo is not a place of punishment, like hell, but it’s also not a place of reward, like heaven.
The unbaptized infant did not merit the joys of heaven nor do they deserve the pains of hell. It’s been said by some mystics that many children who go to Limbo escape hell through the mercy of God, who forsaw that they would reject Him and He allowed them to die as infants without baptism so as to escape eternal fire.
O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! (Rom 11:33)
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My pious hope is that no one who dies before the age of reason is damned. Augustine believed that unbaptized infants who die are damned, however
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I'm just having trouble understanding the rationale behind why those who never got a chance to be baptised should be punished for it.
They are not being really "punished" for it. Not on an individual basis, I mean.
The eternal loss of the Beatific Vision is our default state since our vey conception, thanks to the Original Sin. This most dreadful condition of ours can only be helped with the Sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ and dispensed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
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I highly doubt an innocent unborn baby is damned, I hope not, as someone who had a stillbirth.
I also recall a lady asking padre pio if her Jєωιѕн (unbaptised) father is saved, think he was called Julius.
Padre Pio replied "Julius is fine, but you must pray for him very much". Implying he was in purgatory.
So you never know...
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I've had 3 miscarriages. It IS hard to understand why God allows something for one person, and a different thing for someone else. However, I agree with Pax Vobis:
1. "The unbaptized who die with only original/venial sin on their souls go to Limbo, not hell. Limbo is not a place of punishment, like hell, but it’s also not a place of reward, like heaven."
2. "The unbaptized infant did not merit the joys of heaven nor do they deserve the pains of hell. It’s been said by some mystics that many children who go to Limbo escape hell through the mercy of God, who forsaw that they would reject Him and He allowed them to die as infants without baptism so as to escape eternal fire."
My babies in Limbo are very happy there; they don't know that they're missing the beatific vision. God did NOT have to create this place for them. But he's so good, He did. And I'm glad to know that they're safe. I'll never, ever have to worry about Hell or mortal sins for any of them.
And consider that God did not even HAVE to create them; but He DID. At least they have souls--and bodies--and have been given that opportunity to be happy in that natural state forever. I'd rather have that for them than not have them at all.
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I highly doubt an innocent unborn baby is damned, I hope not, as someone who had a stillbirth.
I also recall a lady asking padre pio if her Jєωιѕн (unbaptised) father is saved, think he was called Julius.
Completely different. Adults who die outside the Church are in a completely different situation than unbaptized infants. Padre Pio lore is 90% apocryphal (aka made up).
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Thanks for all the responses guys.
I've had 3 miscarriages. It IS hard to understand why God allows something for one person, and a different thing for someone else. However, I agree with Pax Vobis:
1. "The unbaptized who die with only original/venial sin on their souls go to Limbo, not hell. Limbo is not a place of punishment, like hell, but it’s also not a place of reward, like heaven."
2. "The unbaptized infant did not merit the joys of heaven nor do they deserve the pains of hell. It’s been said by some mystics that many children who go to Limbo escape hell through the mercy of God, who forsaw that they would reject Him and He allowed them to die as infants without baptism so as to escape eternal fire."
My babies in Limbo are very happy there; they don't know that they're missing the beatific vision. God did NOT have to create this place for them. But he's so good, He did. And I'm glad to know that they're safe. I'll never, ever have to worry about Hell or mortal sins for any of them.
And consider that God did not even HAVE to create them; but He DID. At least they have souls--and bodies--and have been given that opportunity to be happy in that natural state forever. I'd rather have that for them than not have them at all.
My post was made in response to learning about my grandmother having a miscarriage and worrying about what happened to the child for many years after. It's comforting to hear that it turned out fine.
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There are mysteries yet to know about God. He does all judgements, perfectly. There was Fr. Maximillan Kolbe. He was of the opinion, that at the end of the world, those in limbo may be asked, as the angels were asked, "Will you serve Me (God)? So, it is comforting to know that God is perfect in all ways.
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We've talked about infants and adults, but what about children say 6-13 who die, never heard the words Catholic, sin or baptism, who have committed only venial sins?
If they go to Limbo, do they go to purgatory first?
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We've talked about infants and adults, but what about children say 6-13 who die, never heard the words Catholic, sin or baptism, who have committed only venial sins?
If they go to Limbo, do they go to purgatory first?
Seeing as they're beyond the age of reason, the same as what happens to adults in the state of invincible ignorance, which there's a dispute about.
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Fascinating thread, one I have pondered on for many years.
I find it incredible that the Catholic Church has never clarified these things by way of dogma, leaving generation after generation not knowing the fate of the unborn if martyred, miscarried or aborted. The opinions of some saints and churchmen are terrifying, while others are hopeful. Do we Catholics, having been taught Christ is infinitely merciful, not transfer that mercy on to the likes of the unborn, and perhaps others who through no fault of their own were never baptised. We are taught to love our neighbour, so is this love going too far, if you know what I mean.
Another problem I have wondered about is what awareness has such a dead unborn got in its afterlife? Does God give them an intellect they would havbe developed if they lived, or does He leave them as they died?
I recall at a pro-life meeting many years ago, with priests attending, asking why the Church does not teach openly that abortion prevents the soul from participating in the Beatific Vision. Surely, I said, that may prevent Catholics at least from considering abortion as an option. I will never forget the reaction to my question, silence. The chairwoman then said a priest will talk to you after the meeting. No priest approach me. I came away knowing much pro-life is secular.
I have always considered abortion an almost unforgivable mortal sin, even voting for its introduction as the Irish did two weeks ago. How can one expect to get into heaven, having prevented millions of other souls from entering heaven?
Then there was Pope John Paul II when he suggested all such souls may go to heaven. Remember that. In other words abortion was one way to get millions of souls into heaven that might never have gone there had they lived. Why then, I asked, should any Catholic be against abortion?
Here we are, thread after thread, not knowing EXACTLY what happens. Has no pope in history, given the power to clarify and rule on such things, left us this legacy of wondering what happens in such circuмstances?
That said I take great comfort in the tradition of Limbo.
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I lost two boys due to miscarriage several years ago. It was very traumatic at first, but as of right now I truly do not think of it as much because I know it is in Gods Hands and it was His Will.
I do not question it as it would really cause me much grief and I would never arrive at the answer anyway.
God is Goodness Itself, He is Just and Merciful, He is also the Author of life and death.