Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Malleus on March 25, 2015, 11:10:08 PM
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I know that before Pope Pius XII, the Communion Fast was from midnight. How is this? Was this more for Priests, Religious etc. who were probably awake at those hours? Because I would think 99% of the faithful would have been asleep long before midnight.
Sorry if this questions is stupid but I don't understand why it was from midnight if most of the members of the Church would be asleep by then I would think.
And at what time was the Mass? Were there no Masses after noon? How could you receive Holy Communion in a Mass after noon?
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The midnight fast applied to everybody This was one of the reasons for infrequent communion.
I know of some people who still observe this fast. I saw someone faint at mass because they had fasted from midnight and mass was at 2:00 pm.
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And at what time was the Mass? Were there no Masses after noon? How could you receive Holy Communion in a Mass after noon?
I just learned this recently, but afternoon Masses were not allowed at that time. (Well, I think technically 1 pm was the latest Mass could begin.)
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nd at what time was the Mass? Were there no Masses after noon? How could you receive Holy Communion in a Mass after noon?
Fr Czisek reported that there were people in the gulags who fasted all day so that they could recieve Holy Communnion at one of his nightly masses.
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And at what time was the Mass? Were there no Masses after noon? How could you receive Holy Communion in a Mass after noon?
I just learned this recently, but afternoon Masses were not allowed at that time. (Well, I think technically 1 pm was the latest Mass could begin.)
I am told that St John the Baptist in New Orleans had a 2:00 mass. It was known as the "last chance mass."
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The midnight fast applied to everybody This was one of the reasons for infrequent communion.
I know of some people who still observe this fast. I saw someone faint at mass because they had fasted from midnight and mass was at 2:00 pm.
But who would be awake at midnight or after for the fast to start at that time?
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And at what time was the Mass? Were there no Masses after noon? How could you receive Holy Communion in a Mass after noon?
I just learned this recently, but afternoon Masses were not allowed at that time. (Well, I think technically 1 pm was the latest Mass could begin.)
That make sense.
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This was one of the reasons for infrequent communion.
Why would this make Communion infrequent? If you went in the morning (assuming you would wake up at 6, for instance) you would only fast a couple of hours.
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This was one of the reasons for infrequent communion.
Why would this make Communion infrequent? If you went in the morning (assuming you would wake up at 6, for instance) you would only fast a couple of hours.
Not everybody wakes up at 6:00am. the fast applied to everybody. You were expected to fast (not eat anything, not drink anything) from midnight until you recieved Holy Communion. So when people went to mass, particulary the later ones, they would have already had something to eat and they didn't recieve Holy Communion.
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I know that before Pope Pius XII, the Communion Fast was from midnight. How is this? Was this more for Priests, Religious etc. who were probably awake at those hours? Because I would think 99% of the faithful would have been asleep long before midnight.
Sorry if this questions is stupid but I don't understand why it was from midnight if most of the members of the Church would be asleep by then I would think.
And at what time was the Mass? Were there no Masses after noon? How could you receive Holy Communion in a Mass after noon?
I can't remember exactly but I believe it was also during the reign of Pius XII that we fasted from midnight. Of course we didn't actually fast from midnight; we fasted from the last meal of the previous day which could be around 6 pm. I never got up to have a pre-midnight snack and it was no major inconvenience. Not a big deal at all. The fast was for all Catholics who were going to receive Holy Communion during the Mass.
It was from midnight because that is the start of a new day.
Masses were (in our parish) every hour starting at 6am with the last one at 11am if my memory serves me correctly. We never had an afternoon mass or even a mid-day Mass. In fact if you wanted to have a Nuptial Mass you had a morning wedding. It was the custom, and I suppose similarly for Requiem Masses, though I don't remember attending any.
Poche said: This was one of the reasons for infrequent communion.
I disagree. The fast did not stopping people from receiving Holy Communion. If you were a diabetic you would of course be exempt from the fast. Also people would not have to travel very far to get to Mass as they do nowadays, unless you lived way out in the country, and then you were most likely made of stronger stuff.
Fasting these days seems to be regarded as something quite risky! :facepalm:
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Fasting from midnight meant not eating and not drinking since midnight until communion. Malleus, there was no need to be awake at midnight for that!
My dear grandmother refused to drink even water until she received. Later I found out that water did break the Eucharistic fast until early XX century.
Masses were much earlier than now, as early as 4.30 in some Dublin churches. Which means that some received communion less than one hour since awaking. In this perspective, fasting from midnight was not as hard as it sounds.
Another thing an old priest told me is that the Eucharistic fast from midnight has a practical aspect especially for elderly priests, who cannot leave the altar once the mass has started, no matter the urge. I wonder if everybody attending mass should be fasting, that would prevent the constant trips to the facilities. When I was young there were no public facilities in the churches. I guess we had stronger bladders. Of course, sermons were short and communion on Sunday was given before and after the mass.
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... communion on Sunday was given before and after the mass.
Why so? I've never heard the like before.
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I can only assume that it was because of the very large number of Sunday communicants (hundreds) and the idea that no mass should go over 45-50 mn. We had sung masses at Easter and Christmas, and not even that in many churches in Ireland. All that changed in the mid fifties. Maybe some old-timers remember a similar situation in their countries.
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Changing the midnight fast to 3 hours coincided with the permission to have afternoon / evening Masses.
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Sorry if this questions is stupid
:popcorn: I'm glad you asked, because it generated some interesting responses. The replies of Mater, Nadir, JMacQ and Ladislaus are particularly helpful. I especially appreciate anecdotal stories such as JMacQ provided. Knowing more about the whys and wherefores of fasting rules & practices is helpful, IMO.
and then you were most likely made of stronger stuff.
Quite.
BTW, speaking of fasting, I am not really snacking on popcorn on this Lenten day. :wink:
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Traditional Catholics still honor the 12midnight fasting rule, correct?
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Traditional Catholics still honor the 12midnight fasting rule, correct?
Some fast from midnight, some fast for three hours and some fast for one hour. Me personally, usually fast from midnight, but I don't know if it would be sinful to follow the modern practice.
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Traditional Catholics still honor the 12midnight fasting rule, correct?
For me it depends on the time for Mass. Where I live now we have morning Masses so fasting from midnight is not excessive. I used to live in NC and Mass was only every other Sunday at 5:30 p.m., and I had a 2 hr. drive to get there so a three hour fast was what I followed.
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Changing the midnight fast to 3 hours coincided with the permission to have afternoon / evening Masses.
Yes, I didn't immediately want to open a can of worms, but the reason we were discussing this was in discussing the pros and cons of the different missals (in order to buy one for our chapel). One of the priests we conferred with said that you shouldn't pick and choose what things you like about a given time period and that if your missal pre-dates these changes, you shouldn't have Mass in the afternoon (which we often do).
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There's a difference in terms of what we are obliged to follow and what we choose to follow.
So the answer varies among "Traditional Catholics".
If you're not an SV, then the minimum required fast is one hour, because certainly a pope can change these requirements. Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
Even if you ARE an SV, but if you accept Pius XII, which very few SVs don't, it was Pius XII who changed the fast to 3 hours. He did this first for just afternoon Masses but then extended it to ALL Masses. Again, Pius XII had the authority to do this as Pope.
So, unless you reject the legitimacy of Pius XII, you are not obliged to observe more than the 3-hour fast. And, no, epikeia would not force someone to be obliged to keep the midnight fast.
Of course, one can still fast from midnight if you want to. For that matter, you can fast for the preceeding 72 hours. No one's going to stop you except if you pass out.
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If you're not an SV, then the minimum required fast is one hour, because certainly a pope can change these requirements. Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
Worse, because the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass), there is effectively no fast at all anymore. If your Sunday NO Mass runs a little over an hour (which many do, especially when "One Bread, One Body" and "Sing a New Church" are performed with full drum and guitar accompaniment and in all their full, multiple versed splendour), the rule of the fast would permit you to partake of your Big Mac in the church, during the Mass itself (just as long as you finish up by the time the chop-haired, trouser-wearing granny traipses up to the lectern for the first reading).
If you find yourself munching on that hot apple pie or hot fudge sundae during the Nicene Creed, however, well then the law of the fast goes into effect and you should refrain from going up to receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ from the chop-haired granny. Just make sure to step politely out of the pew so that the nice divorced and remarried couple you're sitting next to can get by, as you will be literally the only impediment they face to receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
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If you're not an SV, then the minimum required fast is one hour, because certainly a pope can change these requirements. Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
Worse, because the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass), there is effectively no fast at all anymore. If your Sunday NO Mass runs a little over an hour (which many do, especially when "One Bread, One Body" and "Sing a New Church" are performed with full drum and guitar accompaniment and in all their full, multiple versed splendour), the rule of the fast would permit you to partake of your Big Mac in the church, during the Mass itself (just as long as you finish up by the time the chop-haired, trouser-wearing granny traipses up to the lectern for the first reading).
If you find yourself munching on that hot apple pie or hot fudge sundae during the Nicene Creed, however, well then the law of the fast goes into effect and you should refrain from going up to receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ from the chop-haired granny. Just make sure to step politely out of the pew so that the nice divorced and remarried couple you're sitting next to can get by, as you will be literally the only impediment they face to receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
Very well put, BTNYC! Sad but true.
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If you're not an SV, then the minimum required fast is one hour, because certainly a pope can change these requirements. Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
Worse, because the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass), there is effectively no fast at all anymore. If your Sunday NO Mass runs a little over an hour (which many do, especially when "One Bread, One Body" and "Sing a New Church" are performed with full drum and guitar accompaniment and in all their full, multiple versed splendour), the rule of the fast would permit you to partake of your Big Mac in the church, during the Mass itself (just as long as you finish up by the time the chop-haired, trouser-wearing granny traipses up to the lectern for the first reading).
If you find yourself munching on that hot apple pie or hot fudge sundae during the Nicene Creed, however, well then the law of the fast goes into effect and you should refrain from going up to receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ from the chop-haired granny. Just make sure to step politely out of the pew so that the nice divorced and remarried couple you're sitting next to can get by, as you will be literally the only impediment they face to receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
Well hopefully, few of us here will be going to the Novus Ordo anytime soon.
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Worse, because the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass), there is effectively no fast at all anymore. If your Sunday NO Mass runs a little over an hour (which many do, especially when "One Bread, One Body" and "Sing a New Church" are performed with full drum and guitar accompaniment and in all their full, multiple versed splendour), the rule of the fast would permit you to partake of your Big Mac in the church, during the Mass itself (just as long as you finish up by the time the chop-haired, trouser-wearing granny traipses up to the lectern for the first reading).
If you find yourself munching on that hot apple pie or hot fudge sundae during the Nicene Creed, however, well then the law of the fast goes into effect and you should refrain from going up to receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ from the chop-haired granny. Just make sure to step politely out of the pew so that the nice divorced and remarried couple you're sitting next to can get by, as you will be literally the only impediment they face to receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
:roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh2: :roll-laugh1:
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Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
:laugh2:
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...the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass)...
Is this how it actually is? I thought it was from the time Mass started.
So if Mass was at 10 the fast would start from 7.
No?
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... communion on Sunday was given before and after the mass.
Why so? I've never heard the like before.
The priest used give St Catherine Emerich communion every day outside of mass while she was in the convent so that the other sisters sould not remark on it.
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If you're not an SV, then the minimum required fast is one hour, because certainly a pope can change these requirements. Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
Worse, because the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass), there is effectively no fast at all anymore. If your Sunday NO Mass runs a little over an hour (which many do, especially when "One Bread, One Body" and "Sing a New Church" are performed with full drum and guitar accompaniment and in all their full, multiple versed splendour), the rule of the fast would permit you to partake of your Big Mac in the church, during the Mass itself (just as long as you finish up by the time the chop-haired, trouser-wearing granny traipses up to the lectern for the first reading).
If you find yourself munching on that hot apple pie or hot fudge sundae during the Nicene Creed, however, well then the law of the fast goes into effect and you should refrain from going up to receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ from the chop-haired granny. Just make sure to step politely out of the pew so that the nice divorced and remarried couple you're sitting next to can get by, as you will be literally the only impediment they face to receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
We do not allow people to eat in the church where I go to mass.
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...the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass)...
Is this how it actually is? I thought it was from the time Mass started.
So if Mass was at 10 the fast would start from 7.
No?
no, it is from the receipt of Holy Communion. I knew people who used to get alarm watches and set them so they would know if they could recieve Holy Communion.
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If you're not an SV, then the minimum required fast is one hour, because certainly a pope can change these requirements. Despite that I would have a hard time going to Communion after just one hour of fasting. People would still be burping up Big Mac special sauce while heading up the aisle for Communion.
Worse, because the fast goes into effect one hour before receipt of Holy Communion (rather than before the beginning of Mass), there is effectively no fast at all anymore. If your Sunday NO Mass runs a little over an hour (which many do, especially when "One Bread, One Body" and "Sing a New Church" are performed with full drum and guitar accompaniment and in all their full, multiple versed splendour), the rule of the fast would permit you to partake of your Big Mac in the church, during the Mass itself (just as long as you finish up by the time the chop-haired, trouser-wearing granny traipses up to the lectern for the first reading).
If you find yourself munching on that hot apple pie or hot fudge sundae during the Nicene Creed, however, well then the law of the fast goes into effect and you should refrain from going up to receive the Body (and Blood) of Christ from the chop-haired granny. Just make sure to step politely out of the pew so that the nice divorced and remarried couple you're sitting next to can get by, as you will be literally the only impediment they face to receiving the Blessed Sacrament.
We do not allow people to eat in the church where I go to mass.
Thank God for very small mercies, then.
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Edit
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... communion on Sunday was given before and after the mass.
Why so? I've never heard the like before.
The priest used give St Catherine Emerich communion every day outside of mass while she was in the convent so that the other sisters sould not remark on it.
JMacQ meant "before and after the Mass in the Church". Priests bring Holy Communion to the sick at home as well. That is not what we are discussing.
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... communion on Sunday was given before and after the mass.
Why so? I've never heard the like before.
The priest used give St Catherine Emerich communion every day outside of mass while she was in the convent so that the other sisters sould not remark on it.
JMacQ meant "before and after the Mass in the Church". Priests bring Holy Communion to the sick at home as well. That is not what we are discussing.
In The Little Story of my Long Life by Archbishop Lefebvre, he mentions how, when he was a child, the priest in his local parish distributed Communion every 15 minutes from 5.15am until 9am for those who had to go to work and didn't have time to get to Mass. His parents could usually get to Mass, but if not, they still received Communion. The midnight fast would, of course, have been the practice back then.
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In The Little Story of my Long Life by Archbishop Lefebvre, he mentions how, when he was a child, the priest in his local parish distributed Communion every 15 minutes from 5.15am until 9am for those who had to go to work and didn't have time to get to Mass. His parents could usually get to Mass, but if not, they still received Communion. The midnight fast would, of course, have been the practice back then.
I've long advocated this practice to Traditional priests, but if falls on deaf ears. Priests just have their 9AM Mass (when people need to be at work by then) and then don't care about people who can't make it. It's sad when even Traditional priests have such little solicitude for souls. I would do the same thing, offer Holy Communion regularly and then even in the evening have an hour of adoration with benediction, confessions, and Holy Communion at the end. But priests don't want to be bothered.
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I've long advocated this practice to Traditional priests, but if falls on deaf ears. Priests just have their 9AM Mass (when people need to be at work by then) and then don't care about people who can't make it. It's sad when even Traditional priests have such little solicitude for souls. I would do the same thing, offer Holy Communion regularly and then even in the evening have an hour of adoration with benediction, confessions, and Holy Communion at the end. But priests don't want to be bothered.
Just like the novus ordo priests.
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I've always adhered to the traditional Eucharistic Fast from midnight since I was a child in Catholic school, even in the the early days of the N.O. in the seventies before all hell really broke loose. The "traditional" priests used to demand no food or drink after midnight if you were going to Communion at Mass the next day. And, oh, you were going to Mass, no excuses need apply.
So usually on average, I'm done eating by 5 oclock in the afternoon on Saturday because we usually eat an early dinner and maybe a snack once in a while around seven at night, but rarely, Then nothing until after 12 noon TLM Mass if I'm going to recieve, which is usually. It's my family schedule that gets in the way once in a while more than anything, but fasting is not an issue.
I think twelve to fifteen hrs on avaerage when half that is sleeping is not much to ask for the average communicant who is generally healthy and stable. The problem is we live in a very undisciplined and pampered culture used to instant self-gratification with almost no conception of sacrifice and self-denial.
For what it's worth, the muzzies fast from sun-up to sundown for thirty days straight , while abstaining from not only food or drink, but cigarettes and sex as well, some will not even engage in backbiting, disagreements or swearing as to break the fast And that's just during Ramadan, when during the summer months, can be a long day without anything.
We shouldn't let infidels like that show us what devotion is all about.
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For what it's worth, the muzzies fast from sun-up to sundown for thirty days straight , while abstaining from not only food or drink, but cigarettes and sex as well, some will not even engage in backbiting, disagreements or swearing as to break the fast And that's just during Ramadan, when during the summer months, can be a long day without anything.
We shouldn't let infidels like that show us what devotion is all about.
Yes but then as soon as the sun goes down they go and feast all night.
Hardly comparable to the black fast.