Author Topic: Medjugorje as a global phenomenon (Read 1521 times)

Desmond · « **on:** January 10, 2016, 10:05:50 AM »

Has any of you ever been to Medjugorje?
I have an acquaintance (friend of a friend) who is positively obsessed by the cult, sending people on social networks/IMs so-called "daily messages from ~~Mary or Jesus~~ the Spirits/Scammers".
She apparently regularly visits the center every few months attempting to initiate as many as possible to the practice.

At one point I was genuinely curious myself and wanted to check it out, especially in the hopes of catching one of the allegedly common manifestations.
Not so sure now, nor certain on how would one have to behave in such a place... should you actually pray and join them even though it's almost surely demonic in origin? But it is "catholic", so not paying the proper respects is.. wrong? (I'm also unsure as to the same but regarding N.O. chapels and churches)

There's a good Chiesa Viva issue dealing with the phenomenon, both from a secular pov (as a scam by the "seers"+friars) and supernatural one as a demonic apparition.

Another question, why do you think the Vatican does not embrace it?
Its message is very similar to the VII one, including religious indifferentism, global luv, etc.
Plus a constant is keeping communion with the "Holy" See and everything.
It's apparently bringing the CounterChurch millions of new acolytes in itself.

My guess is.. while very beneficial and (un)orthodox it is too supernatural for modern, 2000s, NewChurch taste, as much as a heavily sanitised Fatima is.

What do you think?

Ps: I don't know where these kind of discussions are supposed to be posted on the forum?

Nadir · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2016, 08:31:03 PM »

I have been to Medugorje. It was in the days when I was still attending the conciliar church. For the benefit of those who have not seen it, here is the link for the English version of Chiesa Viva's Medjugorje: http://padrepioandchiesaviva.com/uploads/Chiesa_viva_398_en_ok__8_.pdf

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At one point I was genuinely curious myself and wanted to check it out, especially in the hopes of catching one of the allegedly common manifestations.
Not so sure now, nor certain on how would one have to behave in such a place... should you actually pray and join them even though it's almost surely demonic in origin? But it is "catholic", so not paying the proper respects is.. wrong?

If you believe that "it's almost surely demonic in origin" don't you think you should stay away from there? Then you give it the label of "catholic" when these manifestations have been rejected as false by every bishop of that Diocese. How then can it be called Catholic?

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Another question, why do you think the Vatican does not embrace it?

It is not for the Vatican to embrace it if the local bishop has disapproved and even condemned it.

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My guess is.. while very beneficial and (un)orthodox it is too supernatural for modern, 2000s, NewChurch taste, as much as a heavily sanitised Fatima is.

How can you say it is "very beneficial and ... too supernatural" when as you say yourself it is almost surely demonic in origin?

Maria Regina · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2016, 08:36:49 PM »

There was a report that couples who had enthusiastically endorsed Medugorje ended up divorcing in large numbers. That in itself caused me to question the veracity. In addition, the local Bishop questioned the authenticity due to some adverse incidents that happened. Recently, did not one of the Vatican cardinals condemn it after a lengthy investigation?

Some folks were calling it "Apparitions on Demand."

Desmond · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2016, 08:55:55 PM »

Quote from: Nadir

I have been to Medugorje.

Out of curiosity, how was your experience? And did you witness anything out of the ordinary while there? I understand if you do not want to share.

Quote from: Nadir

If you believe that "it's almost surely demonic in origin" don't you think you should stay away from there?

Do you believe it is? Does it matter what I believe versus objective reality?
One of the reason I'm doubting is in fact its demonic origin.
But the supernatural is one of my main interests, so I am genuinely curious.

Quote from: Nadir

Then you give it the label of "catholic" when these manifestations have been rejected as false by every bishop of that Diocese. How then can it be called Catholic?

I'm sorry... didn't you go there yourself with an NO parish trip I assume?
Were you not "catholic" then?
It might have been condemned but millions of "catholic" go there and the religion practiced there is essentially the Conciliar Church's.. is that "catholic"?

Quote from: Nadir

It is not for the Vatican to embrace it if the local bishop has disapproved and even condemned it.

Ok, but I would imagine they don't really care about such things, and given its immense popularity, it seems iffy to me that not much effort was spent in investigating the phenomenon, for better or worse, or speaking to the "faithful" about it/condemning it publicly even.

Quote from: Nadir

How can you say it is "very beneficial and ... too supernatural" when as you say yourself it is almost surely demonic in origin?

It is beneficial for the CounChurch due to the P.R. and the fact it brings millions of converts /fallen away members back to them.
Too supernatural, as I said, relating to the CouncChurch seeming taste, which is rather earthly-focused more than divine.
Many, especially the relatively more progressive, have a very distant concept of the Divine, almost Agnostic/Deist in fact.
Regardless of it being demonic in origin. Do they even believe it is? Do they care?

The fact a demonic apparition espouses the same doctrine as the CounChurch does not alarm you?

Desmond · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2016, 08:58:30 PM »

Quote from: Maria Regina

Recently, did not one of the Vatican cardinals condemn it after a lengthy investigation?

I did not know that, do you recall anything more about that?

Quote from: Maria Regina

Some folks were calling it "Apparitions on Demand."

Well yes apparently the "Seers" have been receiving messages for the past 30 years almost on a daily basis..

Maria Regina · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2016, 09:26:37 PM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Maria Regina
Recently, did not one of the Vatican cardinals condemn it after a lengthy investigation?

I did not know that, do you recall anything more about that?

Quote from: Maria Regina

Some folks were calling it "Apparitions on Demand."

Well yes apparently the "Seers" have been receiving messages for the past 30 years almost on a daily basis..

There is this website with an evaluation on Medjugorje
http://olrl.org/prophecy/medjugorje.shtml

But here is the information you requested regarding the Vatican investigation:

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=24329

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March 13, 2015

A scheduled appearance in St. Louis, Missouri, by one of the “seers” of Medjugorje has been cancelled, at the request of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Ivan Dragicevic, one of several people who claim to have experienced visions of the Virgin Mary for years at Medjugorje, was scheduled to speak in St. Louis on March 18. But the event was cancelled without explanation by the sponsors.

Now Archbishop Robert Carlson of St. Louis has released a statement, saying:

I have received a request from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to remind everyone that they are not to participate in events that promote the so-called visionries of Medjugorje and in particular Mr. Ivan Dragicevic. Please make this information available to the Lay Faithful. ...

Please click the link above to read the full article.

Nadir · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2016, 10:27:57 PM »

Quote from: Desmond

Quote from: Nadir
I have been to Medugorje.

Out of curiosity, how was your experience? And did you witness anything out of the ordinary while there? I understand if you do not want to share.

My experience was nothing out of the ordinary. I went to Mass at the St James Church, confessed my sins, climbed the hill, had good food and accommodation in the home of a family there. I saw nothing of a supernatural nature.

Quote from: Nadir

If you believe that "it's almost surely demonic in origin" don't you think you should stay away from there?

Do you believe it is? Well, it is certainly not a supernatural phenomenon.
Does it matter what I believe versus objective reality?
It certainly matters that you should attempt to be as close to Truth as is possible. How else would you save your soul and achieve a higher place in Heaven?
One of the reason I'm doubting is in fact its demonic origin.
But the supernatural is one of my main interests, so I am genuinely curious.

I would call it not supernatural but preternatural. The Church (i.e. all the Bishops of Mostar who have the ultimate say in these things) teaches that it is not supernatural.

Quote from: Nadir

Then you give it the label of "catholic" when these manifestations have been rejected as false by every bishop of that Diocese. How then can it be called Catholic?

I'm sorry... didn't you go there yourself with an NO parish trip I assume? No, I and our daughter went at the behest of my husband. We were not part of a group.
Were you not "catholic" then? I have always been Catholic, but in more recent years I have become more enlightened than to continue with the present schemozzle which is the conciliar church.

It might have been condemned but millions of "catholic" go there and the religion practiced there is essentially the Conciliar Church's.. is that "catholic"?

This has been said many times on CathInfo: many conciliar Catholics have the intent to be good Catholics and for one reason or another hold back from criticising what happens and getting out of conciliardom. It is not for me to judge their Catholicity or otherwise. I only know that even when I was there, my intent was to be Catholic and I was Catholic, just in the wrong place.

Quote from: Nadir

It is not for the Vatican to embrace it if the local bishop has disapproved and even condemned it.

Ok, but I would imagine they don't really care about such things, and given its immense popularity, it seems iffy to me that not much effort was spent in investigating the phenomenon, for better or worse, or speaking to the "faithful" about it/condemning it publicly even.

It has been publicly condemned many times.

Quote from: Nadir

How can you say it is "very beneficial and ... too supernatural" when as you say yourself it is almost surely demonic in origin?

It is beneficial for the CounChurch due to the P.R. and the fact it brings millions of converts /fallen away members back to them.
Too supernatural, as I said, relating to the CouncChurch seeming taste, which is rather earthly-focused more than divine.
Many, especially the relatively more progressive, have a very distant concept of the Divine, almost Agnostic/Deist in fact.
Regardless of it being demonic in origin. Do they even believe it is? Do they care?

The fact a demonic apparition espouses the same doctrine as the CounChurch does not alarm you?I take everything coming from the conciliar church with a grain of salt. The Medjugorje phenonon I largely ignore, unless someone brings up the topic.

Desmond · « **Reply #7 on:** January 10, 2016, 11:16:36 PM »

Ok so I've read up on the technical intra-Newchurch matter in the meantime.

Quote from: Nadir

Well, it is certainly not a supernatural phenomenon.

Right, I used supernatural in the english sense. I meant praeternatural.
But I highly doubt any NewChurch "bishop"'s opinion has any weight on the matter. Also read that Zadir was removed by none other than "cardinal" Ratzinger back then, after making a mess of the whole issue.

Quote from: Nadir

I would call it not supernatural but preternatural. The Church (i.e. all the Bishops of Mostar who have the ultimate say in these things) teaches that it is not supernatural.

The "bishop" of Mostar doesn't have the ultimate say actually.
I read he was exonerated and the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference was put in charge of examining the matter, releasing a declaration in 1991 saying they couldn't affirm its supernatural nature.
In 2010 a Vatican commission was formed to investigate, then it passed the finding to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which is about to publish an official declaration in a matter of days or weeks at most.
So, we'll know shortly the official position of the "Church".
It seems Bergollio's december comments about "not trusting seers" or somesuch were referring to this.

Quote from: Nadir

It is not for the Vatican to embrace it if the local bishop has disapproved and even condemned it.

It has been publicly condemned many times.

The Vatican is basically lawless anyway.
Also saying it cannot be attested as supernatural is NOT a condemnation.
In fact, the whole dog'n'pony show is recognised as a valid Marian sanctuary allegedly.

Quote from: Nadir

I take everything coming from the conciliar church with a grain of salt.

Yet you blindly follow what one yugoslavian "bishop" says, or NewChurch says about an Apparition which might very well be genuine for all you know, and they'd be trying to suppress it like they did with Fatima and the outrageous fake S.Lucìa plus censored/hoaxed Third Secret!
Do you not see a problem with this? Trusting the same people responsible for the biggest con in History (maybe 2nd biggest actually..) to validly determine a similar matter.

Desmond · « **Reply #8 on:** January 10, 2016, 11:21:06 PM »

Quote from: Maria Regina

Please click the link above to read the full article.

Thanks Maria Regina for your comment.

I found out the CDF is due to release an official pronouncement shortly (days/weeks) on the matter, ending speculation once and for all.
I guess we'll know soon enough what Bergollio wants to do with the mess.

As I said already, my guess is the NewChurch and especially Bergollians, do not like such otherwordly annoyances, and they're gonna ditch it, or maybe even literally condemn it.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2016, 02:09:49 AM »

Medjugorje has been an industry funded by tourism.

Money corrupts.

There have been groups that have gone on international tours doing shows based on the so-called apparitions of Medge.

I knew a couple who were on one such tour, and they told me that only after the crowds had gone home and the performers got together behind closed doors did my friends really see what they were all about. It was all about the money. What they did on stage was all a road show, designed to collect revenue.

In one of the so-called apparitions, the woman appearing to the children invited them to touch her hands, and she would take away their sins. When the children touched her hands, they said they could see the woman's hands turn black and the darkness spread up her arms to cover her whole appearance, and then she faded away. Does that sound to you like what the Virgin Mary would do?

Throughout the years the seers have been unruly and disobedient to their parents, sneaking around and hiding from parents so they could engage in activities that were forbidden such as smoking cigarettes and the like. Could you imagine the Fatima children doing anything like that?

I have known Catholics who went to Yugoslavia to visit Medjugorje and came back claiming that their rosaries had turned to gold. One of these women showed me her rosary and it looked to me that the brass base metal had been exposed by some kind of corrosion that took away the chrome plating on the chain. I asked her if she had taken her rosary to a Jєωeler to have him test it for being gold, and she said that she wouldn't dream of questioning Our Lady's miracle. That's not what Catholics do! There is nothing wrong with testing a miracle. In fact, it is the NORMAL thing to do. Any miracle that tests to be fake is no miracle at all!!

.

Nadir · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2016, 02:10:00 AM »

Desmond, I have answered your doubts, guesses and queries politely and I thought helpfully. Yet you take offense at being answered honestly and infer that you know better, and insult me. Why is that?

This is what you said in the Intro thread less than 2 weeks ago:

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The issue is I have a very poor understanding on what Catholicism is supposed to even entail, due to all the confusion in our time.
I've been trying since the very beginning to discern the basic tenets of the faith, to little avail, mainly by reading the catechism, magisterial docuмents, etc.

and yet here you are acting as if you know it all and teaching any poor soul who comes here looking for Truth.

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Yet you blindly follow what one yugoslavian "bishop" says, or NewChurch says about an Apparition which might very well be genuine for all you know,

I do not follow anyone blindly and especially not the Bishop of Mostar who has no jurisdiction where I reside. BTW, these bishops are not Yugoslavian but are in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. As for being genuine, you need to do a bit more reading. This might give you a lead to follow:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/ZovkoAndSexScandels.htm

As I said, the Bishop of Mostar is the one ultimately responsible for what goes on his own diocese. The Bishops of Mostar have declared that there is nothing supernatural going on.

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Also read that Zadir was removed by none other than "cardinal" Ratzinger back then, after making a mess of the whole issue.

I guess that you might mean Bishop Zanic. Here you show your ignorance and arrogance, to claim that he made a mess of the whole thing. He was not removed. At 75, he retired.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2016, 02:25:03 AM »

I have heard on reliable testimony that Bishop Zanic went to Benedict XVI asking him for assistance, since his brother bishops in the region had all agreed that nothing supernatural was going on in Medjugorje, but the tourist industry was ignoring their authority and had continued with their sensationalism shows and "visions on demand" as they say.

Benedict XVI told the bishop that he shouldn't be asking for the Vatican's intervention, because there are many friends of the Church involved and the Vatican did not want to alienate them. He told Bishop Zanic that he was doing just fine on his own and he should continue his work as he had been doing. In other words, he was not going to get any support from upstairs!

I have a personal friend who was a contributor to Caritas of Birmingham, which promotes Medge, and I told her that all the local bishops of the Medjugorje region had concluded that nothing supernatural was transpiring there, and she told me, "That just goes to show how corrupt those bishops are!"

It is normal procedure in the Roman Catholic Church for the local ordinary to have jurisdiction and Church authority to judge the veracity of apparitions and other phenomena that occur in their diocese. It has always been that way. The Vatican very rarely interferes with the local bishop's authority, especially regarding apparitions.

One notable exception is the Virgin of Guadalupe, in Mexico City, where in 1666 a Vatican review finally gave its approval to the original judgment of Bishop Juan de Zumarraga in 1531. Do the math. It took the Vatican 135 years to answer the question.

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Desmond · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2016, 05:47:38 AM »

Quote from: Nadir

Desmond, I have answered your doubts, guesses and queries politely and I thought helpfully. Yet you take offense at being answered honestly and infer that you know better, and insult me. Why is that?

I think you're projecting, and doing exactly what you accuse me of doing.
Honestly, I even think you're not even understanding what I am ever saying nor apparently able to realise I'm not advocating FOR Medjugorje.
No offense.

Quote from: Nadir

This is what you said in the Intro thread less than 2 weeks ago:

and yet here you are acting as if you know it all and teaching any poor soul who comes here looking for Truth.

Am I? Where did I even make one theological point or related to Doctrine?
I am discussing the issue as I would be discussing a political event or any other.

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Yet you blindly follow what one yugoslavian "bishop" says, or NewChurch says about an Apparition which might very well be genuine for all you know,

Quote

I do not follow anyone blindly and especially not the Bishop of Mostar who has no jurisdiction where I reside. BTW, these bishops are not Yugoslavian but are in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. As for being genuine, you need to do a bit more reading. This might give you a lead to follow:
http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/ZovkoAndSexScandels.htm

I've read them referred to as Yugoslavian.. maybe because when they started dealing with the issue in the 80s Yugoslavia was still a political entity.
They are now in the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina maybe?

DO YOU REALISE I AM NOT SAYING OR IMPLYING THEY ARE GENUINE?
I SAID THAT FROM THE START.
I WAS SAYING... FOR ALL YOU KNOW THEY ARE.
COUNTERCHURCH HIERARCHY HAS COVERED UP AND EVEN WORSE IN THE CASE OF FATIMA... SO EXACTLY HOW SHOULD ONE TRUST THEM?

A simple hypothetical argument.

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As I said, the Bishop of Mostar is the one ultimately responsible for what goes on his own diocese. The Bishops of Mostar have declared that there is nothing supernatural going on.

IF HE IS, THEN WHY THE YUGOSLAVIAN CONFERENCE INTERVENTION AND NOW THE VATICAN+CDF ONE?
MATTER WOULD BE CLOSED SINCE 30 YEARS NOW

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I guess that you might mean Bishop Zanic. Here you show your ignorance and arrogance, to claim that he made a mess of the whole thing. He was not removed. At 75, he retired.

SEVERAL REPORTS I'VE READ DID IN FACT SAY THAT, SOOO SORRY FOR MISPELLING HIS NAME THOUGH.

I MEANT HE WAS REMOVED (at the very least) FROM LEADING THE INVESTIGATION EFFORT AND WHATNOT; SEE ABOVE.

Desmond · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2016, 05:51:21 AM »

Gee.. I guess Medjugorje is a touchy issue.

Desmond · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2016, 05:54:19 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

I have heard on reliable testimony that Bishop Zanic went to Benedict XVI asking him for assistance, since his brother bishops in the region had all agreed that nothing supernatural was going on in Medjugorje, but the tourist industry was ignoring their authority and had continued with their sensationalism shows and "visions on demand" as they say.

Benedict XVI told the bishop that he shouldn't be asking for the Vatican's intervention, because there are many friends of the Church involved and the Vatican did not want to alienate them. He told Bishop Zanic that he was doing just fine on his own and he should continue his work as he had been doing. In other words, he was not going to get any support from upstairs!

.

Yes, that is similar to what I read and was referring to when mentioned Ratzinger.
Pro-Med sites have all the details about R.'s role in the whole thing.