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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: sedevacantist3 on June 08, 2019, 06:20:12 PM
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My friend who was basically atheist until a few years ago finally woke up to Christianity, he says largely to do with our back and forth discussions. Now he has been taken in from some heretic pastor from Church of God international. One of their heretical beliefs is that at death we remain asleep and only until Jesus’s second coming will we awake. I gave him a passage matt 27:52 for him to explain. He emailed this pastor and recieved the below reply, to me it’s a lot of fluff but I’m wondering if any of you would respond in a way as to really get through to my friend. Here is the email from the heretic
Good to hear from you and as always, we greatly appreciate your appetite for
pursuing truth. It is a noble cause and applauded effort, especially in this
very secular world we live in.
Your letter was passed to me upon your request and I want to take a moment
to just thank you for your kind words. It's much appreciated and encouraging
to know that the knowledge this work is sharing is having an impact on the
minds and hearts of those seeking the truth. I pray you continue to "knock"
and we can share in having a small part in opening some doors for you as God
gives you the personal guidance to have eyes that see and ears that hear.
Now let's get to your question. You asked about Matthew 27:52-53 and how
that squares with our understanding about death. This is a very good
question because on the surface it may appear to be an inconsistency--but it
isn't.
First, we need to recognize one of the reasons Christ came and visited us
was to reveal the truth about immortality. Notice what Paul told Timothy
when explaining some important points about Jesus Christ and His visitation.
Read the whole context commencing in 2 Tim. 1:7-11. But, pay particular
attention to verse 10--the point I want to make is ".our Savior Jesus
Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to
light through the gospel..." (1Tim. 1:10 (http://x-apple-data-detectors://10)). This is an important nuance to
understand about the gospel--it's also about the clarity regarding eternal
life--how it works and how it happens. It's the same thing Nicodemus
inquired about and is described in John 3:1-13 in the conversation he had
with Christ.
So, the point is Jesus Christ came to also illustrate how eternal life is
obtained and how it works and looks--and how it works and looks is through a
resurrection that takes place, which completes the conversion process--from
mortal to immortal (1 Cor. 15:51-57). This is further confirmed in John
5:25-29. This is an important scripture to keep in mind when considering
Matthew 27:52-53. Now you may ask, why is that? Very simply, it was to
validate by a real illustration, which now confirms that what Christ said in
John 5 is indeed real--He actually has been given the authority by the
Father and does actually have the power over life and death. The
resurrection of those described in Matthew 27:52-53 proves that this just
wasn't a lot of "hot air" that Jesus was promoting; but rather, an
authentically true statement He made of which this "preview" of a
resurrection illustrates and proves He was indeed telling the truth--seeing
was believing!!!
So in short, this was simply a preview, a "prototype" of a resurrection that
proves--it is the exclamation mark---that legitimizes the power and
authority Jesus Christ has been given by the Father over life and death
(John 5:26-27). So, we can rest assure the promises He (Jesus) shared with
all of us when He was here during His ministry, that of being co-heirs with
Him, are in fact true!!
Hope that helps. I pray God will continue to bless you in all your endeavors
as you live your life and search out His truths for His blessings. Be safe
and as always, keep the faith!!
In Christ Service,
Bill Watson
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I don't know how to answer this. There are TONS of weird protestant beliefs and many of the protestants disagree with each other. You could spend a lifetime discovering/refuting all of the misguided "interpretations" they have.
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If I were you, i'd ignore this topic and concentrate on the major catholic doctrines - Holy Communion, the Priesthood, 7 sacraments, the value of good works, purgatory, etc. If you show how protestantism is wrong on the major issues, these smaller ones will be forgotten or can be explained based on the foundational catholic teachings.
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Sheesh! It's hard to find anything meaningful among all the BS. Here is an article that I
came across that might help:
Difficult Bible Verses For Protestants (http://drbo.org/difficult.htm)
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I personally wouldn't trade bible verses with the heretic. Instead, try the approach that "the church is the teacher of mankind,not the Bible". In this forum's library I think you can find an apologetics article
on this topic by the famous Jesuit, Father Arnold Damen, who came to America in the 1880s. He battled the protestants from the east coast to the Mississippi and made hundreds of converts. He also founded Loyola University in Chicago. The article (his sermon) is only about 20 pages. But it is pure logic. Even if your friend doesn't convert, you will have gained a lot of ammunition for future confrontations.
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The Church Of The Bible (http://drbo.org/church.htm) by Fr. Arnold Damen
The One True Church (http://drbo.org/church2.htm) by Fr. Arnold Damen
Quite often Protestants will reject anything a Catholic priest says.
They stubbornly persist in the idea that everything they need to
know is in the Bible. That is why quoting from the Bible is useful.
Of course, they always say something like, "That is figurative speech",
when they don't like it.
Then what you are left with is to say, "Protestants create their own
religion by deciding what is figurative and what is literal." They are
deciding, not God.
Conclusion. The Word of God is subject to their interpretation of it.
This is not divine faith, this is human faith (more intellectual pride
than anything else, pride and rebellion).
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The Church Of The Bible (http://drbo.org/church.htm) by Fr. Arnold Damen
The One True Church (http://drbo.org/church2.htm) by Fr. Arnold Damen
Quite often Protestants will reject anything a Catholic priest says.
They stubbornly persist in the idea that everything they need to
know is in the Bible. That is why quoting from the Bible is useful.
Of course, they always say something like, "That is figurative speech",
when they don't like it.
Then what you are left with is to say, "Protestants create their own
religion by deciding what is figurative and what is literal." They are
deciding, not God.
Conclusion. The Word of God is subject to their interpretation of it.
This is not divine faith, this is human faith (more intellectual pride
than anything else, pride and rebellion).
I am aware of that. My purpose in telling you about this sermon was for you to use his arguments-- not to give the sermon to them. I have found his logic most effective. Hope you do,too.
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I am aware of that. My purpose in telling you about this sermon was for you to use his arguments-- not to give the sermon to them. I have found his logic most effective. Hope you do,too.
OK, but you did not give any links to Fr. Damen's articles.
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OK, but you did not give any links to Fr. Damen's articles.
I mentioned that they were most likely in this forum's library. I thought I remembered seeing someone put them there a few years ago. The Church or the Bible is the title.
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I mentioned that they were most likely in this forum's library. I thought I remembered seeing someone put them there a few years ago. The Church or the Bible is the title.
If you go back and read my reply, you will see that I have provided two links to his articles.
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There's no arguing when the opposition is willing to handwave any verse away as a metaphor, an "illustration", or even "apocryphal" as some soul-sleepers have.
Although there is one thing you could point out: The Protestant's whole spiel was about how Jesus came to show us what resurrection/eternal life would look like, and that ours would look like His. Yet Jesus did not go to soul-sleep or any of that, He descended into Hades. So by the protestant's logic, if our resurrection is like Christ's, we would not go to soul-sleep or have our souls die, but we'd descend into Hell. Thus proving that the protestant's beliefs are actually contradicted by his own logic, therefore making his position that our resurrection/afterlife must resemble Christ's completely untenable.
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I personally wouldn't trade bible verses with the heretic. Instead, try the approach that "the church is the teacher of mankind,not the Bible". In this forum's library I think you can find an apologetics article
on this topic by the famous Jesuit, Father Arnold Damen, who came to America in the 1880s. He battled the protestants from the east coast to the Mississippi and made hundreds of converts. He also founded Loyola University in Chicago. The article (his sermon) is only about 20 pages. But it is pure logic. Even if your friend doesn't convert, you will have gained a lot of ammunition for future confrontations.
This.^^^
Below are short snips from 2 different sermons given by Fr. Wathen that might help.
The Bible and the Missal @ 8:28
"…Catholics do not read the bible in the same way [as protestants]… because Catholics do not read the bible with the idea of defending their faith through the passages.
And I remind you that whenever you do get into a discussion with non-Catholics on the subject of religion, do not let them begin to quote the bible to you. You should say: “Oh no, if we’re going to talk religion, we’re not going to refer to the bible, because you and I think of the bible in totally different ways. You’re not willing to accept my view of the bible, why should I accept yours?”
For example, we understand that not the bible, but the Church is the source of our faith, and the Church points to the bible as a reference. In other words, the bible for us Catholics is like a text book, or a manual, or a prayer book.
But the protestants look to the bible as the chief source of the teaching of his religion, unless you can overcome that disparity you should not discuss the bible in these kinds of discussions. Of course without the bible, the protestant has nothing to talk about because he cannot talk about history, protestants have no history to speak of…."
Outside the Church there is no salvation @ 11:00
"… concerning those who are not in the Catholic Church, by what power will they be saved? Let us grant that they cannot save themselves anymore than any man can go to the moon without some kind of help.
The power of salvation comes from Christ Himself, as Christ said, without Me you can do nothing. When He said without me you can do nothing, He meant literally nothing. You cannot take that first step without Christ.
And you will say; well they believe in Christ, and my answer is, you forget that Christ and the Church are one. If you separate the Church from Christ, you have sought to divide Christ. There is no such thing as Christ without the Church because the Church is His Mystical Body.
As St Augustine referred to this mystery, the Church is with Christ, the whole Christ, there is no salvation independently of the Church anymore than there is salvation independently of Christ. You can never separate Christ from the Church because the two are one.
And this is of course the great heresy of Protestantism, they dare to separate salvation from Christ because they separate salvation from the Church. And I’m going to ask you, by what power can they be saved?..."
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I've been trying to convert my brother, a Protestant (Seventh-Day Adventist now), for 20 years.
He rejects all logic, all truth, St. John chapter 6, and all history. He is not guided by his mind.
He is guided by his will.
He does not want the Catholic Church or anything it says. He believes. as many Protestants do,
that the Papacy took over the Church of Christ about the year 313 and has corrupted it.
He believes that Ellen Gould White is a prophetess sent by God for our modern times, even
though her prophecies have been proven false. He believes that Our Lady of Fatima is the
work of the devil.
How to convert someone like this? As long as he is directed by his will, it's impossible, unless
God sends some kind of chastisement.
I've heard from experts that if a man is sincerely seeking the truth, then he can be converted.
How many are seeking the truth, now days? Not many. They know what they want and they
have a will that rejects anything they don't like.
I've had people tell me that they are god !!!
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I've heard from experts that if a man is sincerely seeking the truth, then he can be converted.
How many are seeking the truth, now days? Not many. They know what they want and they
have a will that rejects anything they don't like.
I've had people tell me that they are god !!!
Same here, I got into it with a 'prot minister in training' I worked with once who totally scoffed at all things Catholic saying he was god, that we are all gods, popes are devils and etc,. Another prot I worked with who was raised in the NO and converted to prot preacher in prison (he read the whole prot bible over 100 times) said Luther was the world's greatest theologian, the bible alone is necessary for salvation (but only the KJV from 1611) and a whole slew of other tired old idiocies.
It boils down to either they seek the truth, or they reject it, wanting absolutely nothing to do with it, while continuing to insist that they are not doing so.
We know with certainty this much because it is from God Himself when He promised:"For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened," which is how we know that prots do not seek the truth, rather, they blatantly reject it.
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This is what St Paul advises Timothy on this question:
“But flee thou youthful desires, and pursue justice, faith, charity, and peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=23-#x) And avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes. [24] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=24-#x)But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild towards all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=25-#x) With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, [26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=26-#x) And they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil, by whom they are held captive at his will.”
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This is what St Paul advises Timothy on this question:
“But flee thou youthful desires, and pursue justice, faith, charity, and peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. [23] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=23-#x) And avoid foolish and unlearned questions, knowing that they beget strifes. [24] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=24-#x)But the servant of the Lord must not wrangle: but be mild towards all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=25-#x) With modesty admonishing them that resist the truth: if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, [26] (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=62&ch=2&l=26-#x) And they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil, by whom they are held captive at his will.”
I may have trouble with the admonishing and modesty part, it seems to me people don’t like being admonished no matter how i deliver and i get flack for thinking i know it all
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I may have trouble with the admonishing and modesty part, it seems to me people don’t like being admonished no matter how i deliver and i get flack for thinking i know it all
Well, in short, I don't think anyone would take offense at your being modest (humble) but if he's wrong looking for answers in the wrong place by consulting that rambling protestant, why not admonish him? The truth can't hurt him. If he doesn't want it you wasting your precious time on him.
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Well, in short, I don't think anyone would take offense at your being modest (humble) but if he's wrong looking for answers in the wrong place by consulting that rambling protestant, why not admonish him? The truth can't hurt him. If he doesn't want it you wasting your precious time on him.
Maybe but I could have taken that attitude when my friend was an atheist, eventually he realized that scam and found Christ, who is to say with time he won’t leave that lunatic sect, anyways now he’s stuck on a passage in Acts 2:29 where he speaks of David’s tomb is with us till this day, he says this proves soul sleep, he needs help
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My friend who was basically atheist until a few years ago finally woke up to Christianity, he says largely to do with our back and forth discussions. Now he has been taken in from some heretic pastor from Church of God international. One of their heretical beliefs is that at death we remain asleep and only until Jesus’s second coming will we awake.
That heretical belief basically puts paid to Purgatory. As Pax said in reply 1, these protestants will run you ragged with Bible quotes, so I would suggest that, if you do continue, that you should tackle the Catholic questions as Pax suggests. Be well armed though with Catholic teaching and be prepared to back them up with scripture.
The alternative is to offer him your prayers and invite him to contact you when he's ready. Obviously you had some influence in leading him away from atheism. Prayer may be the only option.