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Author Topic: Marital Act During Pregnancy  (Read 18842 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Marital Act During Pregnancy
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2016, 08:48:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: Amakusa
    there is a sin for the spouse who asks it while the woman is in an infertile period.
    No, because even then the possibility of conception is not zero, just as it isn't zero after menopause. God opens and closes the womb.


    Even if it IS ZERO, there's no sin per se to have sɛҳuąƖ relations during such a period.

    That's Novus Ordo "open to life" theology, which is ridiculous.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #61 on: July 26, 2016, 08:50:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    So let's hear it from the Church:

    Quote from: Casti Conubii
    Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.


    Offline Geremia

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    « Reply #62 on: July 26, 2016, 12:14:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So let's hear it from the Church:

    Quote from: Casti Conubii
    Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.
    Based on this, I am not sure where you are disagreeing with what Ladislaus has said.
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    Offline Geremia

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    « Reply #63 on: July 26, 2016, 12:21:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    So let's hear it from the Church:

    Quote from: Casti Conubii
    Nor are those considered as acting against nature who in the married state use their right in the proper manner although on account of natural reasons either of time or of certain defects, new life cannot be brought forth. For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial rights there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider so long as they are subordinated to the primary end and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.
    Are all acts that are not "against nature" not sins?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #64 on: July 26, 2016, 01:21:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    if sɛҳuąƖ intercourse isn't for procreation, then it's for lust.
    Yes, because then pleasure would be what is primarily sought.


     :facepalm:

    For crying out loud, I just explained that you ignore the very existence of the secondary ends of marriage.  These ends can be sought even if the primary ends aren't possible.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #65 on: July 26, 2016, 01:29:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Are all acts that are not "against nature" not sins?


    Please read the text.  It says that it is not forbidden, i.e. not sinful.

    Pius XII later backs this up.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #66 on: July 26, 2016, 03:20:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Your interpretation of Pius XI and Pius XII would seem to justify contraception, then.


     :facepalm:

    Quote from: Matthew
    Church teaching is that you cannot deliberately frustrate the procreative act, so that it will not result in a pregnancy. You cannot willfully separate the act from its natural consequences.

    This includes all methods of birth control -- which includes actions the man/woman might take, as well as any substances or devices the man or woman might use, to prevent a conception from taking place.

    Beyond that, all normal sex within the bonds of marriage is licit.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #67 on: July 26, 2016, 03:22:12 PM »
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  • Contraception is ruled out by the following phrase in CC:

    Quote
    so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved


    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #68 on: July 26, 2016, 04:12:03 PM »
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  • Ladislaus (et al.) are correct because they lean on Church teaching.

    Others (specifically Amakusa, and to a lesser degree Geremia) are objectively wrong and/or ignorant about this.

    Ladislaus, as well as myself, have had some seminary training, and we are not giving our opinion or our "2 cents worth" (which is worthless) in this particular case. We are giving you the objective Catholic Church teaching on the matter.

    Take it and be Catholic, or leave it and be a heretic. The choice is yours.

    America was founded by Puritans and many of its tenets are in the very air we breathe. Have you ever had a thought that a dirty filthy homeless man was headed for hell? Have you ever thought that "Cleanliness is next to godliness?" There are many Calvinist and Puritan ideas that are part of the American ethos, that are difficult to NOT absorb if you are born and raised here.

    Geremia is probably a bit biased because of his own marital situation, which he has brought up on CathInfo on several occasions, though for reasons of decency I won't bring up the specifics here.

    Amakusa sounds like a lot like "Heitanen" with his Puritanism and Manichaean/Albigensian view on the Material world and sex in particular.

    I agree with Ladislaus that many of these types turn out to be scrupulous sorts, and/or unmarried. I guess they are frustrated/jealous of the married, and do everything they can to "ruin it" for them?

    Well, one of my favorite saints is St. Dominic, and he knew how to deal with the Albigensian heretics!
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    Offline Geremia

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    « Reply #69 on: July 26, 2016, 05:19:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Contraception is ruled out by the following phrase in CC:

    Quote
    so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved
    Which it is with oral contraceptives
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    Offline Matthew

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    « Reply #70 on: July 26, 2016, 05:25:13 PM »
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  • No, Geremia, it is not.

    Any action, substance, or device using before, during, or after the marital act which thwarts the potential creative power of the act (conception) is INTRINSICALLY EVIL, called birth control, and condemned by the Catholic Church.

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    Offline Geremia

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    « Reply #71 on: July 26, 2016, 06:12:52 PM »
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  • Despite Ladislaus's quoting Casti Connubii, which says "so long as they are subordinated to the primary end," it seems he's arguing for the "secondary means" without any consideration of the primary end (which he seems to think can cease to exist).

    Being infertile, for example, does not annihilate the primary end of the act.

    Actively contracepting, e.g., is to disregard the primary end.

    It seems Ladislaus thinks the primary end ceases to exist, yet it is always there,* even for those contracepting. It's one's disregard or regard of that end that can make the act sinful or not.
    (*although some here may argue it's not there during pregnancy; that's the whole controversy of this thread)

    In "Whether it is a mortal sin for a man to have knowledge of his wife, with the intention not of a marriage good but merely of pleasure?," St. Thomas doesn't flat-out say "yes" but makes distinctions:
    Quote from: St. thomas
    Some say that whenever pleasure is the chief motive for the marriage act it is a mortal sin; that when it is an indirect motive it is a venial sin; and that when it spurns the pleasure altogether and is displeasing, it is wholly void of venial sin; so that it would be a mortal sin to seek pleasure in this act, a venial sin to take the pleasure when offered, but that perfection requires one to detest it.
    This seems similar to Amakusa's view. St. Thomas condemns it:
    Quote from: St. Thomas
    But this is impossible, since according to the Philosopher (Ethic. x, 3,4) the same judgment applies to pleasure as to action, because pleasure in a good action is good, and in an evil action, evil; wherefore, as the marriage act is not evil in itself, neither will it be always a mortal sin to seek pleasure therein.
    Then he shows, when "the goods of marriage" (e.g., the primary end) are disregarded, in what cases the act is a venial or mortal sin:
    Quote from: St. Thomas
    Consequently the right answer to this question is that if pleasure be sought in such a way as to exclude the honesty of marriage, so that, to wit, it is not as a wife but as a woman that a man treats his wife, and that he is ready to use her in the same way if she were not his wife, it is a mortal sin; wherefore such a man is said to be too ardent a lover of his wife, because his ardor carries him away from the goods of marriage. If, however, he seek pleasure within the bounds of marriage, so that it would not be sought in another than his wife, it is a venial sin.
    St. Thomas does not contradict Casti Connubii here because St. Thomas is discussing the case when a good of marriage (e.g., the primary end) is disregarded, but Casti Connubii is only considering the case "so long as they are subordinated to the primary end" ("and so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved"). Thus, St. Thomas implies it is sinful to disregard any end of marriage, the primary or secondary; e.g., Henry VIII sinned by disregarding the secondary ends, and contraceptors sin by disregarding the primary end.

    St. Thomas says if pleasure is sought in marriage so as to avoid adultery, it is a venial sin. Amakusa argues it is always at least a venial sin, which is false.

    St. Thomas's teaching is beautiful; it is very balanced and far from having any tint of puritanism or dualism. His distinction between a man treating his wife as a wife vs. as simply a woman is also excellent.

    His answer also seems to answer the question of this thread: It would "exclude the honesty of marriage" to ask a pregnant wife, especially one advanced in pregnancy, to pay the debt. Hence, a husband would sin in doing so, esp. if there is risk of abortion.
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    Offline Kephapaulos

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    « Reply #72 on: July 27, 2016, 01:26:57 AM »
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  • Geremia,

    So were some theologians from the first half of the twentieth century before Vatican II then off the mark concerning the topic of this thread? In other words, did some of them depart somewhat from St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus de' Liguori concerning the marital act and pregnancy?  
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #73 on: July 27, 2016, 08:50:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Contraception is ruled out by the following phrase in CC:

    Quote
    so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved
    Which it is with oral contraceptives


    No, you have no understanding of theological language.  This isn't a reference to the mere "mechanical" part of the act, but a broader term that refers to the entire normal chain of events that would lead to conception.  Even with contraceptives, the normal hormonal chain would be interfered with and therefore would violate the "intrinsic nature of the act".  You're thinking in purely mechanical terms.  Theologians commonly use this phrase, and Pius XII also used it later ... specifically to rule out any active interference in the normal course of the act, i.e. contraception, Onanism, etc.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #74 on: July 27, 2016, 08:53:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    St. Thomas says if pleasure is sought in marriage so as to avoid adultery, it is a venial sin. Amakusa argues it is always at least a venial sin, which is false.

    St. Thomas's teaching is beautiful; it is very balanced and far from having any tint of puritanism or dualism. His distinction between a man treating his wife as a wife vs. as simply a woman is also excellent.


    St. Thomas is NOT the Magisterium.  If pleasure is sought so as to avoid adultery, that's no sin because the pursuit of the pleasure is subordinated to one of the secondary ends of marriage.  St. Thomas did not clearly articulate or understand this notion of the secondary ends of marriage, which Casti Conubii lays out quite clearly.  And Papal Encyclicals trump St. Thomas.