Author Topic: Low necklines (Read 1398 times)

Sneakyticks · « **on:** June 09, 2014, 09:11:59 PM »

How is it that (I guess) probably since the renaissance women wore low necklines, especially the wealthy and the royalty (the people at traditioninaction.org consider Marie Antoinette a "good catholic" even though she has really low necklines in her portraits), and I guess wasn't considered immodest or sinful, but since several centuries ago now it is sinful and immodest? I don't know when exactly this changed but all through the 20th century up to right before Vatican 2, low necklines were considered immodest and sinful, but it seems that it wasn't before.

MariaCatherine · « **Reply #1 on:** June 10, 2014, 02:02:46 PM »

I think it might simply come down to the fact that there was no papal teaching on the matter until later. Men started wearing pants with nothing over them well after the Apostolic age, and no one but a future pope can fairly condemn that.

MrsZ · « **Reply #2 on:** June 10, 2014, 05:34:46 PM »

I could be wrong, but I think that the more religious people always dressed more modestly regardless of the fashions. Also, the rich and elite have always had a tendency to dress immodestly with exaggeration, expensive materials and more exposure of the body.

Re: Marie Antoinette. I think there's a difference between paintings of her when she was a frivolous young woman new to the court. She became more devout and serious minded later on and I'm assuming her clothing reflected that change. And there may be paintings showing that she was dressed more appropriately.

Feel free to correct me on this.

JezusDeKoning · « **Reply #3 on:** June 10, 2014, 05:40:29 PM »

Quote from: MrsZ

I could be wrong, but I think that the more religious people always dressed more modestly regardless of the fashions. Also, the rich and elite have always had a tendency to dress immodestly, either by ostentatious or by exposure of the body or both.

Re: Marie Antoinette. I think there's a difference between paintings of her when she was a frivolous young woman new to the court. She became more devout and serious minded later on and I'm assuming her clothing reflected that change. And there may be paintings showing that she was dressed more appropriately.

Feel free to correct me on this.

That would be my experience. I have a friend, very Catholic girl, who never showed up to classes in anything less than a long skirt and modest shirt. Medal of St. Therese, too.

wallflower · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2014, 07:38:13 AM »

Quote from: MrsZ

I could be wrong, but I think that the more religious people always dressed more modestly regardless of the fashions. Also, the rich and elite have always had a tendency to dress immodestly with exaggeration, expensive materials and more exposure of the body.

Re: Marie Antoinette. I think there's a difference between paintings of her when she was a frivolous young woman new to the court. She became more devout and serious minded later on and I'm assuming her clothing reflected that change. And there may be paintings showing that she was dressed more appropriately.

Feel free to correct me on this.

This sounds about right to me but with the disclaimer that I've never looked into it very deeply. I know in general that just because people did it doesn't make it modest. We have sermons on modesty going back to day 1, so it's always been a problem. This could have been a part of the problem too.

MariaCatherine · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2014, 08:13:44 AM »

I wonder if it might have been a reaction to the prig prods.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2014, 08:24:49 AM »

You see Traditional Catholics TODAY who dress less than modestly. What's the big surprise? Human nature is human nature, and there's a tendency to idealize various eras in Church history to the point of forgetting the human aspect of the Church. Starting with the so-called "Renaissance" there was a tendency to emphasize the human body in both art and in fashion.

MariaCatherine · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2014, 09:15:49 AM »

Another thing to consider is the artist's interpretation. She may have been dressed quite modestly while she posed for the portraits, and the artist might have lowed her neckline himself. She might have had no control over the publication of these kinds of portraits of herself. And that might have been the convention at the time for royalty, even for devout Catholic royals. Michelangelo was a devout Catholic, and he obviously didn't consider his Sistine chapel ceiling immodest.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2014, 09:42:42 AM »

Quote from: MariaCatherine

Michelangelo was a devout Catholic, ...

Uhm, no.

ClarkSmith · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2014, 03:05:45 PM »

Quote

How is it that (I guess) probably since the renaissance women wore low necklines, especially the wealthy and the royalty (the people at traditioninaction.org consider Marie Antoinette a "good catholic" even though she has really low necklines in her portraits), and I guess wasn't considered immodest or sinful, but since several centuries ago now it is sinful and immodest? I don't know when exactly this changed but all through the 20th century up to right before Vatican 2, low necklines were considered immodest and sinful, but it seems that it wasn't before.

The difference is women in the 20th century began wearing a V-shaped neckline. This is when priests started to attack modern fashion.

The Très Riches Heures manuscript show women with low necklines. (February, April, June)

Sneakyticks · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2014, 09:30:45 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

You see Traditional Catholics TODAY who dress less than modestly.

You bet, and I have denounced this, only to be told (even by sedes): "Why are YOU paying such close attention to the hemlines, sleeve-lengths and tightness of women's and girls' clothing?"

Funny how they say the exact same thing the novus ordos say when it comes to such matters.

Matto · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2014, 09:35:05 PM »

Quote from: Sneakyticks

Quote from: Ladislaus
You see Traditional Catholics TODAY who dress less than modestly.

You bet, and I have denounced this, only to be told (even by sedes): "Why are YOU paying such close attention to the hemlines, sleeve-lengths and tightness of women's and girls' clothing?"

Funny how they say the exact same thing the novus ordos say when it comes to such matters.

Yes, often when you complain about immodest dress people attack you for saying anything about it.

I feel sorry for women who dress that way. They cause so many men to sin every day.