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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cantarella on June 19, 2013, 04:27:04 PM

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Cantarella on June 19, 2013, 04:27:04 PM
The traditional Roman Catholic clergy has always had a clean cut (short hair no beard).

What are your thoughts on long hair / beard on the layman?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 19, 2013, 04:30:01 PM
The smartest, most kind and beautiful traditional Catholic men I know have long hair and a beard.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Hatchc on June 19, 2013, 04:37:26 PM
 :laugh1:
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Frances on June 19, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
I don't care for long hair or facial hair.  I like short hair, smoothly clean-shaven, well-groomed.  The Dr. House two-day grizzled look is just gross.  A flat-top crew or military cut is ideal, or, if elderly, a little longer, but it must be very neat.  No man should attempt to cover his mostly bald head with four strands of long hair that are shellacked in place.  This is just laughable.  Of course, I state my personal preference.  In many parts of the world, a priest isn't a priest without a full beard and lots of hair.  Still, it has to be neat and clean unless he is a hermit or a missionary to primitive peoples of some sort and he lives outdoors.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Charlemagne on June 19, 2013, 04:49:41 PM
Wanna have some fun? Ask a prottie whether Our Lord had long hair. When they say that He did, ask them how they know, considering that Scripture makes no mention of Him having long hair. What they're unwittingly doing is relying on tradition (the painting Head of Christ, for example).
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: SoldierOfChrist on June 19, 2013, 04:56:08 PM
Quote from: Charlemagne
Wanna have some fun? Ask a prottie whether Our Lord had long hair. When they say that He did, ask them how they know, considering that Scripture makes no mention of Him having long hair. What they're unwittingly doing is relying on tradition (the painting Head of Christ, for example).


That's ingenious Charlemagne.  I will try that next time I get into a heated debate with one of these heretics.  Of course, by the same token, I did recently find a movie on netflix about Christ's life and it portrayed him with short hair.  Pretty sure it was made by protties too.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on June 19, 2013, 04:59:57 PM
It would appear that our Lord had longer hair and a beard.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 19, 2013, 06:10:11 PM
This is interesting.  I always believed that we were to follow the local customs of good taste.

I hope my hubby never grows long hair.  It would be a 'fro.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: PereJoseph on June 19, 2013, 06:16:43 PM
Quote from: Cantarella
The traditional Roman Catholic clergy has always had a clean cut (short hair no beard).


Maybe since the death of Pius XII, but it hasn't always been the case by a long shot.  Beards were favoured amongst clergy for most of the Counter-Reformation, namely the late XVIth and the entire XVIIth centuries.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Domitilla on June 19, 2013, 06:42:04 PM
I couldn't care less about the length of a Trad-Man's hair or if he chooses to have facial hair.  I am much more interested in the content of his character.  By the way, I do agree with Mithrandylan - a young, married man at out Chapel sports a well-groomed ponytail and beard. He is a very dignified, highly intelligent, and articulate member of the SSPX Resistance (as is his beautiful wife).
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: magdalena on June 19, 2013, 07:02:13 PM
Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Cantarella
The traditional Roman Catholic clergy has always had a clean cut (short hair no beard).

 
Maybe since the death of Pius XII, but it hasn't always been the case by a long shot.  Beards were favoured amongst clergy for most of the Counter-Reformation, namely the late XVIth and the entire XVIIth centuries.


Short hair and beard.  A couple examples would be St. Edmund Campion and St. Francis de Sales.  That said, it doesn't really matter.  

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSVL-7n-9-9VIq0KHncj6A6U0ahpuauRZHX2T1f_uWfD-TFRiJ)


(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcToS_KJbSPyt4Etcf7YmnCg9XjRLKHRSzj7obCgzZQeumfpuB71)
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: magdalena on June 19, 2013, 07:05:04 PM
Quote from: Domitilla
I couldn't care less about the length of a Trad-Man's hair or if he chooses to have facial hair.  I am much more interested in the content of his character.  By the way, I do agree with Mithrandylan - a young, married man at out Chapel sports a well-groomed ponytail and beard. He is a very dignified, highly intelligent, and articulate member of the SSPX Resistance (as is his beautiful wife).


How true!!!
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Cantarella on June 19, 2013, 07:05:54 PM
Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Cantarella
The traditional Roman Catholic clergy has always had a clean cut (short hair no beard).


Maybe since the death of Pius XII, but it hasn't always been the case by a long shot.  Beards were favoured amongst clergy for most of the Counter-Reformation, namely the late XVIth and the entire XVIIth centuries.


Good point, PereJoseph
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Tiffany on June 19, 2013, 07:32:11 PM
Long hair is another sign of rebellion in our culture. I find it repulsive in men, and NO pony tails.    :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 19, 2013, 07:36:28 PM
I agree with you Tiffany.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Telesphorus on June 19, 2013, 07:37:54 PM
I would prefer not to see men with hair longer than the hair of the women.

With today's styles, that's a real possibility.

While longer hair (than is typical today) has at times been acceptable, socially there are pretty clear cut norms regarding this, even today.

Standards are not always absolute, sometimes cultural norms, when they are in accord with Tradition, should be followed.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Cantarella on June 19, 2013, 07:49:05 PM
I like long hair in men, provided that it is clean and well -groomed. Long hair in men are not a sign of rebellion of our times. Men have used their hair long throughout history!
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 19, 2013, 07:59:53 PM
Short hair was a favored style among the French Revolutionaries.

Historically and traditionally speaking, long hair on men is a significant part of Catholic culture.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Cantarella on June 19, 2013, 08:08:00 PM
Knights, angels, and even Our Lord Himself are "portrayed" as a long hair men. I do not find those representations "repulsive" at all but manly and dignified.

Also, beards can be flattering to some men. Again, and always, with an impeccable appearance, well-groomed and taken care of.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 19, 2013, 08:08:49 PM
It's funny how some trads are so sensitive to the evils of modern culture, and how we must fight against it, substantially and cosmetically, and then they'll get all ornery about men with long hair because it's culturally rebellious.  Right.  I smell fiftiesism.  Crew cuts for everyone!
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Tiffany on June 19, 2013, 08:14:01 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
It's funny how some trads are so sensitive to the evils of modern culture, and how we must fight against it, substantially and cosmetically, and then they'll get all ornery about men with long hair because it's culturally rebellious.  Right.  I smell fiftiesism.  Crew cuts for everyone!
I'll bring the clippers!  :laugh1:

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Novus Weirdo on June 19, 2013, 09:22:32 PM
Speaking as a man, the current long hair and facial briar patch thing is just lazy.  It says, "I can't be bothered with grooming" or "I prefer to embrace my inner animal."  Sure, point out all the saints throughout history with long hair and beards as precedent, but those men were doing something with meaning and holiness.  I challenge anyone to point out someone today with the ZZ Top meets Rasputin look that is doing anything truly and genuinely productive.  And I don't mean the nice hippies down the street running the organic vegetable smoothie operation or the closet yuppies that morphed into Duck Dynasty.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 19, 2013, 09:39:02 PM
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Speaking as a man, the current long hair and facial briar patch thing is just lazy.  It says, "I can't be bothered with grooming" or "I prefer to embrace my inner animal."  Sure, point out all the saints throughout history with long hair and beards as precedent, but those men were doing something with meaning and holiness.  I challenge anyone to point out someone today with the ZZ Top meets Rasputin look that is doing anything truly and genuinely productive.  And I don't mean the nice hippies down the street running the organic vegetable smoothie operation or the closet yuppies that morphed into Duck Dynasty.


As if there's a surplus of great and holy men clean shaven with short hair.

Good Catholics are in short supply.  It has nothing to do with the length of hair.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 19, 2013, 09:53:03 PM
Interestingly enough, the disdain of long hair seems to be the result of Catholics inability to draw visual connotations from anything besides pop culture.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Novus Weirdo on June 19, 2013, 10:41:40 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan

As if there's a surplus of great and holy men clean shaven with short hair.


There are a lot of great and holy men clean shaven with short hair.  Pope Pius X, +Williamson, Father Hewko, and Father Pfeiffer come to mind; I've yet to see a picture of them looking like Billy Ray Cyrus or Abbie Hoffman.  OOPS!  There's that pop culture reference!

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Good Catholics are in short supply.  It has nothing to do with the length of hair.


Yes, which is precisely why threads like these are without any redeeming value.

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mabel on June 19, 2013, 11:47:31 PM
I'm repulsed by crew cuts but more so by the general attitude of those who think they are the only hairstyle. I just don't think they look nice and I can't stand people telling men with long hair that they need a haircut. I always get upset when the barber takes cuts my boys' and husband's hair too short, I think they look great with long hair, and would look fine with hair even the length of Our Lord's.

I think men look like gentlemen with longer hair as well as facial hair. Crew cuts make them look hardened and harsh or like they are military. It doesn't matter what I think, what matters is their love for Our Lord and Our Lady. I realize though that long hair can be a way to combat vanity just as much as short hair. Both can honor virtue and emulate the saints.

As for what other people said, longer hair has always historically been the norm in Catholic culture, those with shaved, short hair have often been involved as soldiers in a secular or pagan state.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Ambrose on June 20, 2013, 01:52:04 AM
Charlemagne:
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Telesphorus on June 20, 2013, 03:42:01 AM
haha it looks like most of the women here empathize with this poor cavalier against the "roundhead"

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Burton%2C_William_Shakespeare-_The_Wounded_Cavalier.jpg)
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 04:31:59 AM
Are there any RECENT Catholic heroes with the long hair/beard combo?  Like from the last 200 years?

Maybe the Great Monarch will.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Quasimodo on June 20, 2013, 05:10:23 AM
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Speaking as a man, the current long hair and facial briar patch thing is just lazy.  It says, "I can't be bothered with grooming" or "I prefer to embrace my inner animal."  Sure, point out all the saints throughout history with long hair and beards as precedent, but those men were doing something with meaning and holiness.  I challenge anyone to point out someone today with the ZZ Top meets Rasputin look that is doing anything truly and genuinely productive.  And I don't mean the nice hippies down the street running the organic vegetable smoothie operation or the closet yuppies that morphed into Duck Dynasty.


I accept your challenge and point out myself. My hair is getting longer and I have an eight inch beard. I think I'm truly productive. I don't not shave out of laziness either.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Stephen Francis on June 20, 2013, 07:18:28 AM
St. Paul the Apostle says that women should have long hair as it is given to them over against a covering like a veil. He goes on to say that a man should not have hair as long as a woman's. It's clear that we're talking about a hair length that is considerably longer than what we see in pictures of noblemen and kings of old. Otherwise many Popes and Bishops would have spoken out against the hair length of men in their day.

I would much rather see a faithful Catholic man who looks like D'Artagnan, not only in hair length but in propriety of dress and noble comportment, than a liberal Newchurch indifferentist who looks like the typical suburbanite with a crewcut and attends 'church' in Bermuda shorts and sneakers.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 20, 2013, 07:20:48 AM
Quote from: Zeitun
Are there any RECENT Catholic heroes with the long hair/beard combo?  Like from the last 200 years?

Maybe the Great Monarch will.


There aren't many recent Catholic heroes, period.  

But regardless, all that would prove is what I said before-- short hair is an innovation of masons and liberal revolutionaries of the last three hundred years.

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Seraphia on June 20, 2013, 07:33:37 AM
I'm repulsed by crew cuts but more so by the general attitude of those who think they are the only hairstyle. I just don't think they look nice and I can't stand people telling men with long hair that they need a haircut. I always get upset when the barber takes cuts my boys' and husband's hair too short, I think they look great with long hair, and would look fine with hair even the length of Our Lord's.

 I think men look like gentlemen with longer hair as well as facial hair. Crew cuts make them look hardened and harsh or like they are military. It doesn't matter what I think, what matters is their love for Our Lord and Our Lady. I realize though that long hair can be a way to combat vanity just as much as short hair. Both can honor virtue and emulate the saints.

 As for what other people said, longer hair has always historically been the norm in Catholic culture, those with shaved, short hair have often been involved as soldiers in a secular or pagan state.



Well said Mabel.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Charlemagne on June 20, 2013, 09:18:05 AM
Quote from: Ambrose
Charlemagne:


Well, of course! :cool:
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 10:15:38 AM
I also think there is a generational issue here as well.  Younger people may respect long hair while older people consider a sign of rebellion.  
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 10:16:39 AM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
There aren't many recent Catholic heroes, period.  

But regardless, all that would prove is what I said before-- short hair is an innovation of masons and liberal revolutionaries of the last three hundred years.



So....St. Pius X had a masonic haircut?????  :confused1:
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: PereJoseph on June 20, 2013, 12:25:17 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
I also think there is a generational issue here as well.  Younger people may respect long hair while older people consider a sign of rebellion.  


Yes, Mithrandylan addressed this when he mentioned fiftiesism.  Baby boomers are generally beholden to a host of liberal social ideas and attitudes that they mistakenly believe come from the Church and from Catholic culture.  The XXth century was evidently a very confusing time in which to grow up.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 12:48:48 PM
Quote from: Stephen Francis
St. Paul the Apostle says that women should have long hair as it is given to them over against a covering like a veil. He goes on to say that a man should not have hair as long as a woman's. It's clear that we're talking about a hair length that is considerably longer than what we see in pictures of noblemen and kings of old. Otherwise many Popes and Bishops would have spoken out against the hair length of men in their day.

I would much rather see a faithful Catholic man who looks like D'Artagnan, not only in hair length but in propriety of dress and noble comportment, than a liberal Newchurch indifferentist who looks like the typical suburbanite with a crewcut and attends 'church' in Bermuda shorts and sneakers.


Did St. Paul have long hair?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 20, 2013, 01:35:47 PM
Archbishop Lefebvre had a beard at a time when he was a priest.

Also, the eastern Church (in communion with the Seat of Peter) has always had clergy with long hair and beards. Using the clergy in the Roman rite as the standard of comparison, regarding appearance, is a flawed premise because the eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as clergy in the Roman rite.

Oh yeah, Jesus, the Apostles, St. John the Baptist, etc had long hair and a beard, too.

But as other posters already commented, the external appearance does not really matter (as long as it's still reverent to God and within reason), what really matters is a person's character and their internal relationship with our Lord and Blessed Mother.  
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Quasimodo on June 20, 2013, 01:40:53 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan

But regardless, all that would prove is what I said before-- short hair is an innovation of masons and liberal revolutionaries of the last three hundred years.



Mith, can you show evidence that this was a masonic innovation?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 02:01:19 PM
Why is having short hair considered anti-Catholic?  I'm confused because all the modern Popes had short hair--why didn't they wear long locks?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Ambrose on June 20, 2013, 02:37:39 PM
From the commentary of Cornelius Lapide 1 Corintians 11:15

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/scripture/newtestament/1stcor11.htm

Quote
Ver. 15.—But if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her. To let the hair grow long is contrary to what becomes man, is the mark of a weak and effeminate mind, unless it is done because of ill-health or intense cold. Hence S. Augustine reproves some monks who wore their hair down to their shoulders, to gain the appearance and reputation of holiness (de 0p. Monach.). Again, it seems fitting for a man to pray with uncovered head, for a woman with covered, as the Apostle has proved here. The woman ought, therefore, to let her hair grow long, but not the man, for her hair was given her for her covering.

Take note, however, that it is not absolutely enjoined, either by natural, Divine, or ecclesiastical law, that a woman should let her hair grow long and man should not. Hence, as was said in the notes to ver. 6, religious women cut off their hair. On the other hand, the men of some tribes, like the Gauls, used to let their hair grow long for an ornament. Hence we get the name of Gallia Comata. Homer, too, frequently speaks of the “long-haired Achæans.” The Romans, also, in ancient times, grew their hair long, and did not apply the scissors till the time of Scipio Africanus. Pliny says (lib. vii. c. 59) that the first barbers came into Italy from Sicily, A.U.C. 454. Lycurgus also enacted that the Lacedæmonians should retain their hair.  S. Paul, therefore, is not laying down any rule, but merely points to the teaching of nature, that it is fitting for a woman, when she goes out in public, to go with bonnet and veil, but not for a man. Still, he here adopts the decency taught by nature, and wishes the Corinthians to observe it as if it were a precept, hence he adds—



There is no law, and the customs have differed from place to place, so why worry about it?  As long as the man is not effeminate as his reason, I see no reason to think bad of him.

  I would not think Charlemagne was unmanly or the Soldiers in his army, or numerous Catholic kings, knights and crusaders.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 02:56:02 PM
There's obviously a lot of evidence that short hair on men is anti-Catholic.  Why isn't there more being done to reverse this among traditionalists?  Can we perhaps try to convince priests to quit having their hair cut short and quit shaving?  
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: claudel on June 20, 2013, 02:56:36 PM
Quote from: Frances
… A flat-top crew or military cut is ideal …


The last thing Catholic Americans need is more incentive to worship the military and its immoral exploits. (The interests of full disclosure require that I admit that my own hair is quite short in part because nothing I say or do will any longer persuade it to grow on top. Surely there's a patron saint for those plagued by thinning hair!)

Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Quote from: Mithrandylan

Good Catholics are in short supply.  It has nothing to do with the length of hair.


Yes, which is precisely why threads like these are without any redeeming value.


Why is it that the smartest comment on this thread gets slammed with down-pointing thumbs?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Ambrose on June 20, 2013, 03:15:19 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
There's obviously a lot of evidence that short hair on men is anti-Catholic.  Why isn't there more being done to reverse this among traditionalists?  Can we perhaps try to convince priests to quit having their hair cut short and quit shaving?  


What evidence?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Kreuzritter1945 on June 20, 2013, 07:53:37 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Short hair was a favored style among the French Revolutionaries.

Quote from: Mithrandylan
But regardless, all that would prove is what I said before-- short hair is an innovation of masons and liberal revolutionaries of the last three hundred years.


Monks always kept short hair. Almost all of the popes in history had short hair. Short hair was also the favored style of the Greeks and Romans. Italians and Greeks continued to wear short hair throughout the first 800 years of Christianity. Long hair and long beards on men was only introduced into Italy in the Middle Ages by the "barbarians". Long hair only became widespread in France starting in the 12th century. In England full beards only became popular in the 14th century. Short hair has nothing to do with Masonry or the French Revolution. In fact powdered wigs are more associated with the Enlightenment than short hair.

Another interesting fact: The Greeks who went into schism with the Church a thousand years ago accused Latin Rite Catholics of being heretics for shaving their beards (which the Greeks had been doing themselves until about the 9th century).
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Kreuzritter1945 on June 20, 2013, 07:57:44 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Novus Weirdo
Speaking as a man, the current long hair and facial briar patch thing is just lazy.  It says, "I can't be bothered with grooming" or "I prefer to embrace my inner animal."  Sure, point out all the saints throughout history with long hair and beards as precedent, but those men were doing something with meaning and holiness.  I challenge anyone to point out someone today with the ZZ Top meets Rasputin look that is doing anything truly and genuinely productive.  And I don't mean the nice hippies down the street running the organic vegetable smoothie operation or the closet yuppies that morphed into Duck Dynasty.


As if there's a surplus of great and holy men clean shaven with short hair.


Actually there is:
St. Anthony of Padua
St. Bonaventure
St. Diego of Alcala
St. Paschal Baylon
St. Aloysius Gonzaga
St. Gerard Majella
St. John Berchmans
St. Charles Borromeo
St. Peter Claver
St. John Baptist de La Salle
St. Anthony Mary Claret
St. Anthony Mary Gianelli
St. John Bosco
St. Clement Mary Hofbauer
St. Gabriel of Our Lady of Sorrows
St. Francis Jerome
St. Louis de Montfort
St. Leonard of Port Maurice
St. Michael Garicoits
St. Paul of the Cross
St. Vincent Strambi
St. John Baptist de Rossi
St. Peter de Arbues
St. Juan Capistrano
St. Philip of Jesus
St. Nicholas of Tolentino
St. Peregrine
St. Angelus
St. Expeditus
St. Florian
St. Januarius
St. Lawrence of Rome
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 20, 2013, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: Kreuzritter1945

Actually there is:
St. Anthony of Padua
St. Bonaventure
St. Diego of Alcala
St. Paschal Baylon
St. Aloysius Gonzaga
St. Gerard Majella
St. John Berchmans
St. Charles Borromeo
St. Peter Claver
St. John Baptist de La Salle
St. Anthony Mary Claret
St. Anthony Mary Gianelli
St. John Bosco
St. Clement Mary Hofbauer
St. Gabriel of Our Lady of Sorrows
St. Francis Jerome
St. Louis de Montfort
St. Leonard of Port Maurice
St. Michael Garicoits
St. Paul of the Cross
St. Vincent Strambi
St. John Baptist de Rossi
St. Peter de Arbues
St. Juan Capistrano
St. Philip of Jesus
St. Nicholas of Tolentino
St. Peregrine
St. Angelus
St. Expeditus
St. Florian
St. Januarius
St. Lawrence of Rome


How come this post isn't getting more thumbs down?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 20, 2013, 08:38:03 PM
This is getting ridiculous.

The whole point is that if people are going to attach unsavory stigmas to men with long hair because of an inability to look past modern pop culture, we can do the same thing with short hair.  

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: ShepherdofSheep on June 20, 2013, 09:07:25 PM
I don't judge a man by his hair length or presence or lack of facial hair.  As long as he takes pains to be reasonably well-groomed, who cares?  Some look better on certain people, but at the end of the day, it's the soul that matters.

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mabel on June 20, 2013, 09:12:27 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
This is getting ridiculous.

The whole point is that if people are going to attach unsavory stigmas to men with long hair because of an inability to look past modern pop culture, we can do the same thing with short hair.  



Case in point: The Cure of Ars


It is totally subjective.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 20, 2013, 09:28:34 PM
This (http://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2012/10/scissors-or-sword-why-medieval-men.html) is an interesting article.

An excerpt:

Quote
"Whilst residing in Paris in the sixth century, Queen Clotild (d. 554), the widow of the Merovingian ruler Clovis, became the unwilling subject of the inveterate plotting of her sons, Lothar and Childebert, who were jealous of her guardianship of her grandsons, the children of their brother, Chlodomer. Childebert spread the rumour that he and his brother were to plan the coronation of the young princes and sent a message to Clotild to that effect. When the boys were dispatched to their uncles they were seized and separated from their household. Lothar and Childebert then sent their henchman Arcadius to the Queen with a pair of scissors in one hand and a sword in the other.

"He offered the Queen an ultimatum. Would she wish to see her grandsons live with their hair cut short, or would she prefer to see them killed? Beside herself with grief, Clotild stated that if they were not to succeed to the throne she would rather see them dead than with their hair cut short. Rejecting the scissors, she opted for the sword.The sequel to this story, told by Gregory of Tours (d. 594), reveals an alternative to death or short-haired dishonour. A third grandson, Chlodovald, was well guarded and escaped his uncles. Seeking to escape the fate of his brothers, he cut his hair short with his own hands and became a priest. Voluntary tonsuring did not carry the ignominy of shearing under duress."
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 21, 2013, 01:11:59 AM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
This is getting ridiculous.

The whole point is that if people are going to attach unsavory stigmas to men with long hair because of an inability to look past modern pop culture, we can do the same thing with short hair.  



Are you that guy from FE who wears steampunk clothes?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: fidelismaris on June 21, 2013, 01:24:48 AM
My husband has a short beard with short hair. I think it suits his face very well.

Here is a picture of the Archbishop's aforementioned beard for those who haven't seen it. It's pretty awesome, in my opinion.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Stephen Francis on June 21, 2013, 07:28:36 AM
Slightly off topic here...

Anyone else get totally drawn in by the humble, gentle warmth of the Archbishop's smiling face?

I was going to post a thread about this, but I will just briefly mention it here:

Look at pictures of St. Pius X and other pre-Conciliar Popes.

Now look at the photo montage that adorns the home page of Novus Ordo Watch
(I'm not endorsing the whole site; just saving you the trouble of looking up six separate photos on their own).

Ever notice that the rogues' gallery from Roncalli onward always look pained, angry, sick or devious in their photos? Even the Vatican press office releases photos of them that do nothing to enhance any sense of sanctity or spirituality. They look like business leaders or politicians who are bogged down in the power struggles of this world.

The saintly Archbishop's expression, however, a man I never even heard of until two years ago, instantly makes me want to hear about the Faith from him and ask his Apostolic blessing.

+Marcel Lefebvre, lover of Jesus and His Church, pray for us.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 21, 2013, 07:29:27 AM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
This is getting ridiculous.

The whole point is that if people are going to attach unsavory stigmas to men with long hair because of an inability to look past modern pop culture, we can do the same thing with short hair.  



Are you that guy from FE who wears steampunk clothes?


No.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 21, 2013, 07:31:30 AM
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 21, 2013, 09:27:05 AM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


How long is your hair?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Neil Obstat on June 21, 2013, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: Stephen Francis
Slightly off topic here...




This is a nice post but it is off-topic.  What do you hope to accomplish
by changing the subject?  A new thread?  



Quote
Anyone else get totally drawn in by the humble, gentle warmth of the Archbishop's smiling face?

I was going to post a thread about this, but I will just briefly mention it here:

Look at pictures of St. Pius X and other pre-Conciliar Popes.

Now look at the photo montage that adorns the home page of Novus Ordo Watch
(I'm not endorsing the whole site; just saving you the trouble of looking up six separate photos on their own).

Ever notice that the rogues' gallery from Roncalli onward always look pained, angry, sick or devious in their photos? Even the Vatican press office releases photos of them that do nothing to enhance any sense of sanctity or spirituality. They look like business leaders or politicians who are bogged down in the power struggles of this world.

The saintly Archbishop's expression, however, a man I never even heard of until two years ago, instantly makes me want to hear about the Faith from him and ask his Apostolic blessing.

+Marcel Lefebvre, lover of Jesus and His Church, pray for us.

Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.



Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


There goes the thread.............


Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Hatchc on June 22, 2013, 11:56:42 AM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't brought Rosarium back.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 22, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


How long is your hair?


Sorry, I didnt see this.

Answer: long.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 22, 2013, 04:21:57 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


How long is your hair?


Sorry, I didnt see this.

Answer: long.


Mine is past the middle of my back.  Yours?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Renzo on June 22, 2013, 05:29:55 PM
I keep my hair cut very short and I hate to shave.  So, I use an electric razor, which leaves me with a "permanent" 5 o'clock shadow.  

I think girls who wear their hair like me look weird.  I also think girls look awful with beards.  

I think it is inconsiderate to not be cleanly.  So, I wash daily.   Although, some people do not.  

I also think using the bathroom without closing the door is disgusting and perhaps even lewd.  Although,  it seems that a significant percentage of americans do not agree with me.  

Most of the "hippies" I know are in their fifties.  So, they tend to lead quiet lives, that revolve around whatever family they have left, from the disaster that was usually their young adult days.  

As I recall, one of the "big whigs" over at fisheaters is a man with very long hair and is into the "heavy metal look/lifestyle."  I don't really see that as an expression of catholic culture.  I guess I see heavy metal as more of a reaction to/an attempt to express the horror of modern life.  

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 22, 2013, 09:14:43 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


How long is your hair?


Sorry, I didnt see this.

Answer: long.


Mine is past the middle of my back.  Yours?


I don't think so.  It is almost always in a pony tail, which obviously makes it shorter.  

Would you like me to get out the measuring tape?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: magdalena on June 22, 2013, 09:40:42 PM


Deleted.  Double posted.  
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: magdalena on June 22, 2013, 09:42:30 PM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
This (http://modernmedievalism.blogspot.com/2012/10/scissors-or-sword-why-medieval-men.html) is an interesting article.

An excerpt:

Quote
"Whilst residing in Paris in the sixth century, Queen Clotild (d. 554), the widow of the Merovingian ruler Clovis, became the unwilling subject of the inveterate plotting of her sons, Lothar and Childebert, who were jealous of her guardianship of her grandsons, the children of their brother, Chlodomer. Childebert spread the rumour that he and his brother were to plan the coronation of the young princes and sent a message to Clotild to that effect. When the boys were dispatched to their uncles they were seized and separated from their household. Lothar and Childebert then sent their henchman Arcadius to the Queen with a pair of scissors in one hand and a sword in the other.

"He offered the Queen an ultimatum. Would she wish to see her grandsons live with their hair cut short, or would she prefer to see them killed? Beside herself with grief, Clotild stated that if they were not to succeed to the throne she would rather see them dead than with their hair cut short. Rejecting the scissors, she opted for the sword.The sequel to this story, told by Gregory of Tours (d. 594), reveals an alternative to death or short-haired dishonour. A third grandson, Chlodovald, was well guarded and escaped his uncles. Seeking to escape the fate of his brothers, he cut his hair short with his own hands and became a priest. Voluntary tonsuring did not carry the ignominy of shearing under duress."


Good story, Mythrandylan.  I very much like the picture of ABL and the post by fidelismaris that followed as well.  
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Quasimodo on June 23, 2013, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


How long is your hair?


Sorry, I didnt see this.

Answer: long.


Mine is past the middle of my back.  Yours?


I don't think so.  It is almost always in a pony tail, which obviously makes it shorter.  

Would you like me to get out the measuring tape?


If you don't mind I'm curious.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 23, 2013, 01:14:42 AM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
Stephen Francis, good post, and yes, I've noticed that, too.  Though when you say 'angry' I've seen a few pics of St Pius X where he looked like he was ready to go 12 rounds, though they never bothered me because we all know who he would have been throwing punches at!


How long is your hair?


Sorry, I didnt see this.

Answer: long.


Mine is past the middle of my back.  Yours?


I don't think so.  It is almost always in a pony tail, which obviously makes it shorter.  

Would you like me to get out the measuring tape?


I win!!! :rahrah: :rahrah: :rahrah:

I like to wear mine in a bun with a hairgami.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Napoli on June 24, 2013, 04:37:43 PM
I love traditional catholics. We are as nutty as anybody. With a good dose of self righteousness.

 :stare:
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Arbogastes on June 24, 2013, 05:37:35 PM
“Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair [Byzantine Text: has long hair], it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair [Byzantine Text: has long hair], it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.” (1 Corinthians 11:14-15) (DRA)
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: TheKnightVigilant on June 24, 2013, 06:34:29 PM
Problem is:

-The Church has never condemned the wearing of long hair in men (as far as I am aware)

-Long hair for men has been overwhelmingly predominant throughout the history of Catholic Europe

-The image on the Shroud of Turin has long hair
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Arbogastes on June 24, 2013, 09:27:26 PM
While all the above is true, the fact is that the modernist West has a completely different reason for accepting long hair than Catholic Europe did in the past. Their reason for accepting long hair is because it fits in with the current neo-hippy/trendy fashion which is designed to make men less “conformist and authoritarian” (i.e. masculine) and more “in-tune and tolerant” (i.e. effeminate).

If tradcats are to survive as an independent group, then they have to be willing to clearly distinguish themselves from those who follow the modernist culture. Consequently, I think that it may no longer be prudent for Catholic men to wear long hair in most cases, at least at the present time.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: PereJoseph on June 24, 2013, 10:57:24 PM
Quote from: Arbogastes
[Byzantine Text: has long hair]


Who cares what some Byzantine text says ?  In any case, it's interesting that you quote such a source in an apparent attempt to argue against "long hair" (something that hasn't yet been defined; how long is long for a man ?).  After all, it's the Eastern churches (both Catholic and schismatic) who are the most adamant about men having long hair.

Quote
(DRA)


Huh ?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: PereJoseph on June 24, 2013, 11:01:00 PM
Quote from: Arbogastes
If tradcats are to survive as an independent group, then they have to be willing to clearly distinguish themselves from those who follow the modernist culture.


The thread is a dispute precisely about the nature of modernist and liberal culture.  It has not yet been proven that "long" hair on men is something modernist or liberal.  In fact, the opposite has been demonstrated.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: PereJoseph on June 24, 2013, 11:09:21 PM
Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Cantarella
The traditional Roman Catholic clergy has always had a clean cut (short hair no beard).


Maybe since the death of Pius XII, but it hasn't always been the case by a long shot.  Beards were favoured amongst clergy for most of the Counter-Reformation, namely the late XVIth and the entire XVIIth centuries.


By the way, who could possibly have given this post a down-thumb ?  I usually don't ask these things, but I find it to be so incredible that somebody apparently hates beards so much as to thumb down any mention of their historical popularity amongst clergymen.  Please, down-thumber, explain yourself.  What bothers you so much about the history of beards on priests ?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Arbogastes on June 24, 2013, 11:42:15 PM
Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Arbogastes
[Byzantine Text: has long hair]


Who cares what some Byzantine text says ?  In any case, it's interesting that you quote such a source in an apparent attempt to argue against "long hair" (something that hasn't yet been defined; how long is long for a man ?).  After all, it's the Eastern churches (both Catholic and schismatic) who are the most adamant about men having long hair.

Quote
(DRA)


Huh ?


To be clear, I used the term "Byzantine Text", not "Byzantine text". The term "Byzantine Text" refers specifically to the traditional text-version of the original Greek New Testament recognized by the Early Church among both Western and Eastern Catholics (among whom was St. John Chrysostom, who employed an early version of the same text-type) and preserved to this day by the Eastern Orthodox (note: this is different from the Protestant "Textus Receptus", which is a corrupt, inferior version of the same text). I quoted it here because I felt it clarified the meaning present within those passages of the Vulgate text (in case you don't believe me, then here is a link to a homily where St. John Chrysostom quotes a text that has a nearly identical translation of those particular phrases: null (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220126.htm)).

"DRA" is an abbreviation of "Douay Rheims American [Edition]", referring to the 1899 American edition of the Douay Rheims Bible.

What exactly is your argument here?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2013, 11:52:17 PM
I've noticed minorities have a tendency to be intimidated by white men with beards and/or long hair (long hair that's not an effeminate, windswept Justin Bieber-esque, modern, Judaized, Hollywood look or some other feminized vain look).

There is a reason why Jєωιѕн Hollywood has hijacked the facial hair of real men and deemed it as the trendy fashionable look of today. All of these fruit sodomites and/or effeminate manginas sporting facial hair or long hair taints the look for real men who have beards and/or long hair. It's an attempt to take what little identity the white man has left in this rootless culture. The TV watching sheep, who lack critical thinking, are conditioned into thinking such increasingly scarce real men are part of this socially engineered mass of girlymen. Therefore, society can treat the few remaining real men the same way as it treats the new male drone of a submissive disposition; and these real men are expected to be effeminate, passive, void of character, etc.; for if a man does not conform to it, then he will be easily identified and targeted with being demonized.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Arbogastes on June 24, 2013, 11:55:40 PM
Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Arbogastes
If tradcats are to survive as an independent group, then they have to be willing to clearly distinguish themselves from those who follow the modernist culture.


The thread is a dispute precisely about the nature of modernist and liberal culture.  It has not yet been proven that "long" hair on men is something modernist or liberal.  In fact, the opposite has been demonstrated.


I am not convinced. Do you think that the Beatles and the hippies, and the trendies, who are their current cultural successors, decided to grow long hair simply because they suddenly felt an inkling to become more traditional? I don't believe that. In current contexts at least, when long hair is worn by people influenced by the modernist culture and by those groups in particular, I believe that it is a clear modernist political statement. Times have changed.

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 25, 2013, 12:15:10 AM
Quote from: Arbogastes
Quote from: PereJoseph
Quote from: Arbogastes
If tradcats are to survive as an independent group, then they have to be willing to clearly distinguish themselves from those who follow the modernist culture.


The thread is a dispute precisely about the nature of modernist and liberal culture.  It has not yet been proven that "long" hair on men is something modernist or liberal.  In fact, the opposite has been demonstrated.


I am not convinced. Do you think that the Beatles and the hippies, and the trendies, who are their current cultural successors, decided to grow long hair simply because they suddenly felt an inkling to become more traditional? I don't believe that. In current contexts at least, when long hair is worn by people influenced by the modernist culture and by those groups in particular, I believe that it is a clear modernist political statement. Times have changed.



You do realize that most men have short hair, yes?  There is no 'trend' of men having long hair.  

You do realize that short hair was a political statement among French revolutionaries?  http://histclo.com/style/head/hair/hair-histet1789.html  They cut their hair short to spite the hairstyles of royalty and aristocracy.  

I am wondering just exactly what you mean by long, though.  In my estimation, none of the Beatles had long hair, at least not in any picture I've ever seen.  It covered their ears.  Is that what you consider long?  

Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Arbogastes on June 25, 2013, 01:41:13 AM
Perhaps the trend may be more clearly seen among the fake liberal counter-culture (s) spawned by the 50s and 60s than among the current "respectable establishment" (e.g. corporation employees, government workers, etc.) , yet it is still very much present within society (if you want an example, just look at the young men at any average public high school or college, or at the "rock idols" held up as musical celebrities by the media).

We are in a different time and setting from the French Revolution. We are now suffering from the effects of a entirely new kind of revolution: the great "Cultural Revolution" of the 1960s . Before that revolution, wearing short-hair had arguably become the conservative norm for most men within "mainstream society" in the early 20th century (aside from a few outsider groups like farmers and others), and men who would wear long hair then would often be looked down upon (one of my acquaintances actually got expelled from high school in the 50s just for refusing to cut his long hair). But after the 60s, wearing long hair not only became accepted but also became one of the main ways for men to "tune-out" and "defy the establishment" (i.e. defy tradition). In this way, the modernist culture changed long-hair from an archaic symbol of authority to something that is the very antithesis of authority.

p.s. I think the Beatles' hair was a little longer than that. Have you ever seen photos of them in the late 60s and 70s?
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Zeitun on June 25, 2013, 01:49:05 AM
Quote from: Mithrandylan
The smartest, most kind and beautiful traditional Catholic men I know have long hair and a beard.


I just read this........do you mean physically beautiful?

Are you a man or a woman?  Just curious.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Elizabeth on June 25, 2013, 12:18:42 PM
Long hair, it depends.  Jordi Savall is extremely handsome IMO and his hair is long.

Then there are the Honor Guard at the National Cemetery, perfectly handsome.

It depends on the man, and how he carries himself.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Renzo on June 25, 2013, 02:47:27 PM
Since there should be no doubt that 1 Corinthinians 11 clearly condemns "long" hair on men and "short" hair on women, well meaning folks are often confused by it and not so well meaning people often exploit it, to the detriment of the church.  Thus, it appears that the church has attempted to answer the question.  Although, I would like to see a pre-vatican II answer from the church, this current one from catholicanswers seems interesting.  Take it as you will, I am keeping my hair length standards deeply rooted in the 1940s.   :laugh1:

"If St. Paul says long hair is unnatural for men, why do our portraits of Jesus show him with it?

Full Question

In 1 Corinthians 11:14 Paul tells us long hair is degrading to and unnatural for a man. All the pictures of Jesus show him with long hair, so they must be false images.

Answer

The pictures we have of Christ do not derive from any physical description we have of him in the Bible, because there is none. The basic image comes from a long artistic and iconographic tradition—influenced, among other things, by the Shroud of Turin. However, this tradition does not contradict the Bible.

Part of the problem in discussing hair length is how long is long? We know from archeological materials such as Middle Eastern carvings and Egyptian tomb paintings that Jєωs wore what we would consider today as long hair and beards. Hair reached down to the shoulders on men. Women wore hair down to the waist.

Paul was telling Corinthian men that wearing hair down to the waist as women did would be effeminate and contrary to what natural law would suggest, especially considering the physical demands of many first-century male occupations. It is easy for us today to assume the length and cut of a Jєωιѕн man’s hair in the first century to be as it is for most men today, but that’s a misconception that can result in our misreading Paul."

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/if-st-paul-says-long-hair-is-unnatural-for-men-why-do-our-portraits-of-jesus-show-him
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Renzo on June 25, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Of course, with women entering the workforce wearing hair down to their waist was no longer reasonable, for the general public.  Shoulder length would have been more practical, than waist length hair.  However, the traditional desire to differentiate the genders still existed.  So, it seems reasonable to conclude, men began to wear their hair off the collar or "high and tight," in order to give women the breathing room to be comfortable in the boardroom  :laugh1:  

And, since a pair of electric clippers was cheap and a whole lot safer than a big sharp knife, men didn't seem to mind the change.  
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 25, 2013, 04:33:14 PM
Quote from: PaxRomanum18
Quote from: Mithrandylan
They cut their hair short to spite the hairstyles of royalty and aristocracy.


And socialists grew their hair long to spite the hairstyles of "Fascists" and conservatives.

The American and European fashion of wearing long hair has nothing to do with "returning to the style of royalty". They only did it to rebel against the 'clean cut' style that they associated with "wholesomeness" and "conservativism".


Which style was inspired by lice and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ.  Good good.  Are we going to keep doing this?  Thugs pushing dope wear rosaries around their necks.  You gonna stop carrying yours?  You don't judge the merit of a given thing on who uses it, does it, and what their motivations are.  Especially something morally neutral like hair!
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Mithrandylan on June 25, 2013, 04:34:14 PM
Quote from: Zeitun
Quote from: Mithrandylan
The smartest, most kind and beautiful traditional Catholic men I know have long hair and a beard.


I just read this........do you mean physically beautiful?

Are you a man or a woman?  Just curious.


It was a tongue in cheek post-- some people got it.  I am a man.
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Ambrose on June 25, 2013, 08:04:30 PM
Official Painting of the Apparition of
The Most Sacred Heart of Jesus
To Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque



http://www.shrineofsaintjude.net/home-shj.html#Official%20Painting%20of%20the%20Apparition
Title: Long Hair In Men
Post by: Ambrose on June 26, 2013, 03:04:19 PM
It is amazing that someone would down thumb a painting of Our Lord of His appearance to St. Margaret Mary.  Perhaps a Protestant joined the forum?