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Author Topic: Living as brother and sister  (Read 1940 times)

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Offline Disputaciones

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Living as brother and sister
« on: February 03, 2016, 11:52:40 PM »
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  • Where can one find the principles/teaching for this from a pre-V2 source?


    Offline Peter15and1

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #1 on: February 04, 2016, 03:17:08 PM »
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  • Do you mean teachings for under what circuмstances a couple should live as brother and sister, or teachings for what living as brother and sister entails?


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #2 on: February 04, 2016, 03:26:20 PM »
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  • It definitely happened pre-vatican 2.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Nadir

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #3 on: February 04, 2016, 08:56:49 PM »
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  • How about St Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary?

    Apart from them, there were many saints who were married but did not consummate the marriage and others who put aside the carnal nature of marriage for the good of the Kingdom. I will try to name a few.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Nadir

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #4 on: February 04, 2016, 09:10:47 PM »
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  • Then there are those who have agreed to live separate religious lives, like st Conrad and his wife Euphrosyne and St Nicholas of Flue.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Disputaciones

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #5 on: February 04, 2016, 09:50:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Peter15and1
    Do you mean teachings for under what circuмstances a couple should live as brother and sister, or teachings for what living as brother and sister entails?


    The former.

    Thing is, I know two first cousins who had a child and are now living together. When the child was born the girl was living with her mom but soon she moved in with the man. The man is a lot older than the girl and they started fooling around when the girl was underage and the man overage.

    I was told the girl asked a Novus Ordo bishop if they could get married and he said no.

    So I just wonder, if they would ever want to fix their situation, what would they have to do? They can't marry because it's incest and even the Novus Ordo forbids it.

    I would think they absolutely cannot keep living under the same roof, no matter what, but there's that issue with "living as brother and sister", so I just wanted to know if that would apply in their situation but I couldn't find any information on it.

    Offline Nadir

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #6 on: February 04, 2016, 11:28:34 PM »
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  • "Living as brother and sister" is a decision that is made freely by the individual man and woman. This particular pair do not sound likely to seek out such an option.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline tdrev123

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #7 on: February 04, 2016, 11:49:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Disputaciones
    Quote from: Peter15and1
    Do you mean teachings for under what circuмstances a couple should live as brother and sister, or teachings for what living as brother and sister entails?


    The former.

    Thing is, I know two first cousins who had a child and are now living together. When the child was born the girl was living with her mom but soon she moved in with the man. The man is a lot older than the girl and they started fooling around when the girl was underage and the man overage.

    I was told the girl asked a Novus Ordo bishop if they could get married and he said no.

    So I just wonder, if they would ever want to fix their situation, what would they have to do? They can't marry because it's incest and even the Novus Ordo forbids it.

    I would think they absolutely cannot keep living under the same roof, no matter what, but there's that issue with "living as brother and sister", so I just wanted to know if that would apply in their situation but I couldn't find any information on it.


    Cousin marriage isn't considered incest under Catholic laws...You remember in history class all those Catholic royalty?...Plenty of church sanctioned cousin marriage and even Avuncular marriage.

    From what I have read before V-2 you needed your archbishop's approval for the marriage, and there should be a valid reason.  


    Offline TKGS

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #8 on: February 05, 2016, 07:06:40 AM »
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  • I have looked in a few of the pre-Vatican 2 books that I have and, frankly, I can't find anything that mentions what the OP is asking, i.e., Catholic principles and teachings.  This situation has never been the norm or even an ideal.  I think, the Church really hasn't given general principles which govern the situation since it is, or, at least, should be an exception to the rule.

    When we talk of a couple "living as brother and sister" today, we are generally talking about married people who are divorced and then enter into a second civil marriage and have children in the second adulterous marriage.  For the children's sake, in order to raise them and care for them, the couple does not divide into two households but lives as brother and sister because they wish to reconcile with God and the Church.

    One should remember that divorce and remarriage was relatively rare prior to the 1960s.  This did not happen often.  I'm not convinced that this "solution" was ever really contemplated before the explosion of divorce among Catholics since the 1960s.  If it was, it would have been very quietly done and few, if any people, outside the house and the confessional would ever have even known about it.  I am not sure whether or not this is really a good "solution" to the problem even now.  I will leave the issue up to the judgment of those who are more qualified than I.

    As stated above, there are a few instances in the Lives of the Saints where married couples lived as such for the glory of God.  They did so with specific permission from the Church and for very specific reasons.  I think most pre-Vatican 2 books that would discuss the issue at all would be in the various biographies of saints.

    Offline Disputaciones

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #9 on: February 05, 2016, 09:19:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Cousin marriage isn't considered incest under Catholic laws...You remember in history class all those Catholic royalty?...Plenty of church sanctioned cousin marriage and even Avuncular marriage.


    I said first cousins, not second or third. The catholic encyclopedia says that anything within the fourth degree of consanguinity/affinity is incest, and first cousins fall into that category.

    Quote from: tdrev123
    From what I have read before V-2 you needed your archbishop's approval for the marriage, and there should be a valid reason.


    You need to say if you have first cousins in mind when you say this.

    Like I said, the girl asked a Novus Ordo bishop and he said no as in "you could never get married", not as in "I won't but go ask the archbishop".

    Everyone knows that having children with first cousins is very dangerous because the child has a very high chance to be born with bad things because of the blood affinity.

    Offline Nadir

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #10 on: February 05, 2016, 03:35:42 PM »
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  • TKGS said:
    Quote
    the couple does not divide into two households but lives as brother and sister because they wish to reconcile with God and the Church.


    In other words, they acknowledge that they are not married at all, they have been fornicators, and have no right to the marital act.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Disputaciones

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    Living as brother and sister
    « Reply #11 on: February 07, 2016, 09:13:14 AM »
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  • So does anyone know what these people should do in the event they would want to fix their situation?