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Author Topic: List of all valid bishops  (Read 7918 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: List of all valid bishops
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2019, 11:24:46 AM »
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  • It was referenced in Father Cekada’s paper defending the Thuc line. To me, the conciliar church’s opinion on the matter is worthless anyway.
    Yes, according to them, the men consecrated in the Paul VI Rite are certainly valid bishops. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #46 on: June 03, 2019, 11:33:36 AM »
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  • It was referenced in Father Cekada’s paper defending the Thuc line. To me, the conciliar church’s opinion on the matter is worthless anyway.

    I am aware of the Fr. Cekada reference.

    I am trying to validate it.

    Can you please produce the alleged letter?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #47 on: June 03, 2019, 12:48:00 PM »
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  • I am aware of the Fr. Cekada reference.

    I am trying to validate it.

    Can you please produce the alleged letter?
    Why is this letter so important to you? 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #48 on: June 03, 2019, 01:37:07 PM »
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  • Why is this letter so important to you?
    Why are you so threatened by my request?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #49 on: June 03, 2019, 01:40:17 PM »
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  • Ladislaus,
    If you don’t mind me asking, where do you receive the Sacraments?

    MOSTLY at the chapel of an old Independent priest ordained pre Vatican II.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #50 on: June 03, 2019, 01:42:46 PM »
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  • Well put, but to be clear, I believe that the Mendez line is valid as I see no positive doubt.

    I consider the Mendez line valid also, but I believe +Sanborn's argument was largely an ad hominem, demonstrate that Father Kelly's arguments against the Thuc line apply even MORE to the Mendez line.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #51 on: June 03, 2019, 01:45:57 PM »
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  • Sanborn wrote Mendez a letter saying he thanks him for the ordination of two priest. The argument that Mendez was in a faulty mental state is unfounded and unprovable. Why would Bishop jelly get doubtfully consecrated if he was so against the doubtful thuc bishops. The mental state of thuc can be questioned however because of his entering of John Paul II name during the consecration, his changing stance on Rome, and his previous actions such as consecration a known homo. I really am not trying to debate right now I just want to make this list.

    Garbage.  +Sanborn's argument was ad hominem -- see the previous post.  Those arguments about making poor judgments and decision are garbage and have no bearing on the mental state required for validity.

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #52 on: June 03, 2019, 01:46:31 PM »
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  • I consider the Mendez line valid also, but I believe +Sanborn's argument was largely an ad hominem, demonstrate that Father Kelly's arguments against the Thuc line apply even MORE to the Mendez line.
    Are either of these lines *certainly* valid though?  

    Seems to me that anything in the Lefebvre line, or the Eastern Rites, is safer.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #53 on: June 03, 2019, 01:50:31 PM »
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  • I’m sure you agree that the one hand thing has been adequately refuted by Father Cekada.

    Absolutely.  I actually sent Father Cekada a copy (when this accusation first surfaced) of the page in the Rituale Romanum where only the right hand was used for ordinations ... for a couple of centuries in the Roman Rite (if I recall the 11th and 12th centuries), and one hand has always been used in the Eastern Rites.  That argument was nonsense, just like all the nonsense against the Thuc consecrations.  HANDS plural in the Romanum is actually a reference to the fact that other bishops and even priests would lay on hands.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #54 on: June 03, 2019, 01:51:44 PM »
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  • Are either of these lines *certainly* valid though?  

    Seems to me that anything in the Lefebvre line, or the Eastern Rites, is safer.

    There are many types of "certainty".  Church presumes the Sacraments to be valid unless there is positive doubt against them (given certain conditions apply, and not the ones simply invented by +Kelly).

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #55 on: June 03, 2019, 06:55:15 PM »
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  • Absolutely.  I actually sent Father Cekada a copy (when this accusation first surfaced) of the page in the Rituale Romanum where only the right hand was used for ordinations ... for a couple of centuries in the Roman Rite (if I recall the 11th and 12th centuries), and one hand has always been used in the Eastern Rites.  That argument was nonsense, just like all the nonsense against the Thuc consecrations.  HANDS plural in the Romanum is actually a reference to the fact that other bishops and even priests would lay on hands.
    If you could post the reference I would appreciate it. When I debated this in the past with a certain bishop, I showed him what Regatillo and Cappello say on the subject  and he basically ignored it. Regatillo goes so far as to say that he knows a bishop who went to the Holy Office on an ad limina visit and asked the question because he himself did some ordinations with one hand. The HO replied that they get that question often and that ordinations with one hand are valid. The bishop I was debating replied with: ‘who is this unknown bishop’?!
    Ridiculous.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #56 on: June 03, 2019, 06:58:21 PM »
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  • I consider the Mendez line valid also, but I believe +Sanborn's argument was largely an ad hominem, demonstrate that Father Kelly's arguments against the Thuc line apply even MORE to the Mendez line.
    How very true, I’ve said the same for years.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #57 on: June 03, 2019, 07:05:39 PM »
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  • Why are you so threatened by my request?
    No offense, but I think your argument has no merit because the opinion of the conciliar church is worthless in my eye. I just pointed out the reference because of your claim.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #58 on: June 03, 2019, 07:17:29 PM »
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  • No offense, but I think your argument has no merit because the opinion of the conciliar church is worthless in my eye. I just pointed out the reference because of your claim.

    That's because you are a solipsist who believes he can unilaterally declare the church empty.  But then if the Church is empty, what good does it do you or Fr. Cekada to quote a non-Catholic from a letter of unproven existence?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online ByzCat3000

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    Re: List of all valid bishops
    « Reply #59 on: June 03, 2019, 07:53:35 PM »
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  • That's because you are a solipsist who believes he can unilaterally declare the church empty.  But then if the Church is empty, what good does it do you or Fr. Cekada to quote a non-Catholic from a letter of unproven existence?
    I don't think the Vatican is saying the thuc consecrations are certainly invalid, but just that they're doubtful.  But I could be wrong.

    With regards Ladislaus' comment, I have a hard time believing that fringe bishops who may or may not actually be straight in the head, and have no oversight, are what the Church has in mind when she says we presume the validity of ordinations.  And I find it strange that such would be presumed in a case like Thuc, but not for Novus Ordo ordinations.