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Author Topic: Liberty Dollar offices raided!  (Read 4771 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Liberty Dollar offices raided!
« on: November 15, 2007, 12:27:59 PM »
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 01:03:47 PM »
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  • What were the reasons given by the FBI for this confiscation?
    This is serious stuff!  For my money Ron Paul is the only truly serious candidate for the presidency of either party.  Of course, this outrage had to have had something to do with his candidacy.


    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 01:06:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: hollingsworth
    What were the reasons given by the FBI for this confiscation?
    This is serious stuff!  For my money Ron Paul is the only truly serious candidate for the presidency of either party.  Of course, this outrage had to have had something to do with his candidacy.


    I don't buy it till it's confirmed, smells like an hoax to me.

    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 02:20:52 PM »
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  • Thanks for the interesting story ChantCD.  I've scanned the blogosphere and I seem to be one of the first, if not the first to call it an hoax.

    My entry here

    Feels funny to have my neck out like this.

    Offline Matthew

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #4 on: November 15, 2007, 02:29:38 PM »
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  • You're not all that logical, Vandaler.

    This is NOT helping Liberty Dollar out AT ALL. If anything, it's going to scare all their customers away. It will make people afraid to use the coins, etc.

    Matthew
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    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #5 on: November 15, 2007, 02:34:43 PM »
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  • On it being a promotional stunt ?  You may be right that this is a stretch.  I'm not really concerned with that aspect.  

    I just don't believe it occurred.

    Added:  It might be true after all, it's gaining credibility with time.
    You can have a well deserved laugh at me if this is the case.

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #6 on: November 15, 2007, 05:02:19 PM »
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  • Quote
    I don't buy it till it's confirmed, smells like an hoax to me.


    OK, let's confirm the story.  Did this confiscation by the FBI occur, or didn't it?  It's a subject worthy of further discussion.  Surely the story can be corroborated or dismissed.  Let's start there.  But if it is confirmed, I've got a whole lot of questions.

    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 05:20:02 PM »
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  • It's not confirmed, nor denied officially yet as far I can tell.
    Personally, the red flags that made me think it was an hoax have vanished.  I was wrong it seems.

    This local paper suggest some credibility and that details will be forthcoming.

    edit: And this guy suggest his own confirmation.  I've had the occasion to disagree with him on just about everything but he is thorough.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 06:09:55 PM »
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  • So, the story has legs then.  It's about money- lots of it, belonging to a company(?)- to private investors(?)  A powerful agency of the Federal Govt. moves in and confiscates this money.  No explanations yet, apparently.  No reasons given, An FBI spokesperson is stonewalling.  .  I say it again:  This is a big story.  Why is there not more reporting about the incident?   Sounds like a blatant incident of government theft to me.  This is a repackaged Jesse James-type robbery. Are they getting tired of stealing from the people in the old fashioned way, through inflation and unjust taxation?

    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 12:03:24 AM »
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  • Offline hollingsworth

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #10 on: November 16, 2007, 11:20:35 AM »
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  • Quote
    The reason behind the raid is unclear. The Justice Department's position, according to a year-old consumer alert on the Web site of the United States Mint, is that using Liberty Dollars "as circulating money is a federal crime."


    I wonder where the provisions of this alleged "federal crime" are clearly stated in law.  I should think that such a statute mighty require something a bit sturdier than an online "consumer alert."

    Quote
    Mint officials said the Liberty Dollar looks similar to legal tender, with inscriptions that say, "Trust in God" and "USA."


    It's not the inscriptions on the coin which shake them up, but that each Liberty Dollar is worth much more than Federal Reserve coinage.

    Quote
    It's not clear, however, what the Justice Department's view is on the legality of possessing the coins for novelty or as protection against the declining value of government notes.


    It's pretty clear to me.

    Quote
    Mr. von NotHaus said he suspects the raid is in response to "the competition" his currency poses to the U.S. Mint.


    Like duuhh!

     "This is an example of Bernanke trying to protect his own nest because he knows it's got holes in it," Mr. von NotHaus said, referring to Ben Bernanke, the chairman of the Federal Reserve. "He can't have something like the Liberty Dollar running around competing with his currency. It points out the fallacy of the fiat monetary system(i.e. the system that creates money out of nothing). They had to do something. Their currency is losing and we're going to the moon."

    It is not unlikely, in my opinion, that the FBI and other Federal agents were dispatched to the scene by none other than Bernanke himself.  It never occurred to me until now that the Federal Reserve might have arrogated to itself law enforcement authority with the ability to manipulate and command, not just the currency of the realm, (which they've done for decades), but the key Federal law agencies themselves.


    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #11 on: November 16, 2007, 11:22:54 AM »
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  • According to an affidavit filed by FBI agent Andrew Romagnuolo in support of a federal seizure warrant obtained from a U.S. Magistrate last week, the feds have been investigating Liberty Dollar not just for violating federal bans on circulating alternative currency, but also for mail fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering.

    From Reason magazine

    Affidavit (38 pages in PDF)

    Offline hollingsworth

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 01:19:19 PM »
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    the feds have been investigating Liberty Dollar not just for violating federal bans on circulating alternative currency, but also for mail fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering.


    Then issue a Federal indictment, already!  I think you may think that the FBI is justified in ripping off  millions of dollars in Liberty Dollar assets in the midst of an investigation.  By definition, an 'investigation' is just that, viz. a fact-finding phase in which evidence is accuмulated prior to a possible indictment.  You mean to tell me that just because the FBI "has been investigating"  they should have the subsequent right a priori, as it were, to go in and confiscate a company's assets in the absence of established evidence rime has been committed?
    The FBI tacks on other prospective charges, including "mail fraud," "wire fraud," and "money laundering," none of which, taken alone or collectively, can remotely justify the confiscation of the company's assets.  Do the indictment, prove the charges in court, then confiscate the assets.  Wouldn't that be the natural and reasonable course to follow?

    Offline Vandaler

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 01:37:11 PM »
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    Wouldn't that be the natural and reasonable course to follow?


    I honestly don't know.  This is a field in which you will see me rather modest.

    I am confident however that a two year undercover operation would conclude in a way that it would not harm the prosecution.  It's a legal matter now, and it will unfold in courts.

    My interest lies mostly in that the subject resides at the nexus of but Presidential politics and in the backyard of some kind of sub-culture - for lack of better term - that intrigues me. Navigating the blogosphere while this unfolded was a great who's who discovery process.


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Liberty Dollar offices raided!
    « Reply #14 on: November 16, 2007, 03:18:41 PM »
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