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Author Topic: Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg  (Read 4061 times)

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Offline sedetrad

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    At that stage I'll think I'll read the Gospel from start to finish with a pair of fresh eyes and an honest intention.  I still think Jesus was real enough and that the Gospels are a great code for living your life.  There are pearls of Wisdom in the Gospel that are either Divinely inspired or way about any morality I could come up with...
    Frankly for the last 20 years I've had serious reservations about what has been taken from the Gospels and leveraged and what has been ignored and left out.  Christianity seems to have been heavily influenced by the emperor Constatine who as far as I understand it wasn't even a converted Christian until his deathbed.

    For example, Jesus seems to make multiple statement that poverty is good and holy and that Christians should seek to have just enough and then give the rest to the poor.  Give your coat to a man who needs it and trust in providence.

    Hardly any Christians do this however, myself included and the Church has been pretty quiet on the subject for the last 1500 years, and seems to mostly have sided with the Lords and Nobles and Kings, who were little more than the local warlords and mafia strongmen...

    Conversely I've got friends who are evangelical Christian types, Baptists and Methodists who are very pleasant people to have around.  They have good sized families, their children love them, they are always willing to come over and help you paint your house, weed the garden etc.  Some of them are models of virtue.  This leads me to believe that their lives on earth must be pleasing to God...

    I certainly DO have a problem with the idea that 90%+ of people who reach the age of reason are damned to Hell for all eternity.  God designed the system.  He new what humans were before the fall and understood what their nature would be like after the fall.  Any God who creates intelligent beings without asking them first and then damns most of them to hell is to my way of thinking an evil monster.


    Offline sedetrad

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #1 on: August 10, 2013, 09:27:45 AM »
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  • I want the more eloquent members of the forum to dice this up.


    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #2 on: August 10, 2013, 09:36:29 AM »
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  • Reminds me of Desmond Tutu: "I'd rather go to hell than worship a homophobic God"

    Offline Jehanne

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #3 on: August 10, 2013, 09:59:42 AM »
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  • Gregg's statements are heretical or at least proximate to heresy:

    1)  The philosopher David Hume stated:

    Quote
    "Nothing is esteemed a miracle, if it ever happen in the common course of nature. It is no miracle that a man, seemingly in good health, should die on a sudden: because such a kind of death, though more unusual than any other, has yet been frequently observed to happen. But it is a miracle, that a dead man should come to life; because that has never been observed in any age or country."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Miracles

    As all traditional Catholics know, Hume was and is wrong.  Miracles do happen today; one only need look to events such as the Miracle of the Sun, the Miracle of Calanda, Eucharistic miracles of all sorts (such as the Miracle of Lanciano), the many miracles of canonization, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary and other Saints, etc.  Good evidences and proofs of the Roman Catholic faith exist apart from the Miracles of Christ and His Apostles, which were recorded in the New Testament.

    2)  If large numbers of individuals end-up in Hell, such is hardly an argument against the existence of Hell.

    In other words, if Hell exists, then it exists, independently of who's there and who is not.  Besides, what is Hell?  Perhaps Dante's Vision will be consoling to some:

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    In Limbo reside the unbaptized and the virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. Limbo shares many characteristics with the Asphodel Meadows; thus the guiltless damned are punished by living in a deficient form of Heaven. Without baptism ("the portal of the faith that you embrace")[6] they lacked the hope for something greater than rational minds can conceive. Limbo includes green fields and a castle with seven gates to represent the seven virtues. The castle is the dwelling place of the wisest men of antiquity, including Virgil himself, as well as the Persian polymath Avicenna. In the castle Dante meets the poets Homer, Horace, Ovid, and Lucan; the Amazon queen Penthesilea; the mathematician Euclid; the scientist Pedanius Dioscorides; the statesman Cicero; the first doctor Hippocrates; the philosophers Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and Averroes; the historical figures Lucretia, Lucius Junius Brutus, and Julius Caesar in his role as Roman general ("in his armor, falcon-eyed");[7] mythological characters Hector, Electra, Camilla, Latinus, and Orpheus; and many others. Interestingly, he also sees Saladin in Limbo (Canto IV). Dante implies that all virtuous non-Christians find themselves here, although he later encounters two (Cato of Utica and Statius) in Purgatory and two (Trajan and Ripheus) in Heaven.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferno_(Dante)#First_Circle_.28Limbo.29

    So, for many, Hell may not be such a "bad place", and people go there for something which they simply lack, that is, the sanctifying grace which is necessary for Heaven, the Beatific Vision.  For most, perhaps nearly everyone, the "torments" of Hell will simply be the knowledge that the individual did not attain Heaven:

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    The Poet, being roused by a clap of thunder, and following his guide onward, descends into Limbo, which is the first circle of Hell, where he finds the souls of those, who although they have lived virtuously and have not to suffer for great sins, nevertheless, through lack of baptism, merit not the bliss of Paradise. Hence he is led on by Virgil to descend into the second circle.


    http://www.bartleby.com/20/104.html

    Offline BTNYC

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #4 on: August 10, 2013, 11:16:39 AM »
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  • There is no question this post is filled with material heresy.

    Quote from: sedetrad
    Quote
    I still think Jesus was real enough and that the Gospels are a great code for living your life.  There are pearls of Wisdom in the Gospel that are either Divinely inspired or way about any morality I could come up with...


    Sounds like rationalism of the Jeffersonian variety.

    Our Lord was no mere moral philosopher. I don't accept "pearls of wisdom" from a man who also claims for Himself divine Sonship, co-equality with God, the authority to condemn humanity to hell, eating of His Flesh and Blood in order to have life, giving of His own life in propitiation for all sin... unless I truly and firmly believed all of those claims. If I did not, those "pearls of wisdom"  wouldn't be worth the paper they're printed on.


    Quote from: sedetrad
    Quote
    Christianity seems to have been heavily influenced by the emperor Constatine who as far as I understand it wasn't even a converted Christian until his deathbed.
    [/b]


    First, let's get this fallacy out of the way: There is no such entity as "Christianity." There is the Catholic Church, there are heretics, there are schismatics, and that's it. They don't all coalesce to form some amorphous entity known as "Christianity." No serious Catholic I've ever met refers to "Christianity" in this way - it is a term that is pregnant with indifferentism.

    Second, the "influence of Constantine" canard sounds like it was ripped from the pages of a Chick tract. Constantine issued an edict of toleration of Christians. He did not make Catholicism the state religion. He seemed largely indifferent to the Faith, and after the Nicene Council, he sympathized with the Arian heretics, even receiving his delayed baptism at the hands of an Arian. He is not a canonized saint in the Catholic Church, though he is in the eastern schismatic churches. If he has had any "influence" on any particular group, it is on the damnable tradition of Caesaropapism in the schismatic east.

    Quote from: sedetrad
    Quote

    For example, Jesus seems to make multiple statement that poverty is good and holy and that Christians should seek to have just enough and then give the rest to the poor.  Give your coat to a man who needs it and trust in providence.

    Hardly any Christians do this however, myself included and the Church has been pretty quiet on the subject for the last 1500 years, and seems to mostly have sided with the Lords and Nobles and Kings


    I guess he's never heard of St Francis of Assisi.

    This gets to the heart of the matter. I remember reading a thread on FE back when I lurked there in which traditional Catholic men were bashed in the most deplorable, uncatholic, worldly, materialistic manner. Chief among this shameful pack was ggreg, whose scorn and contempt for the poor, and whose boastful, idolatrous praise for the usurious accuмulation of filthy lucre was worthy of Shylock himself.

    The Church has respected legitimate secular authority since its very inception, so I fail to see what scandal is to be found in "siding with lords and nobles and kings." The Church has also consistently preached the virtues of temperance, self-mortification, charity, the need for those who have more to give more... and has produced numerous saints who embraced holy poverty. This is plain to anyone with a working knowledge of Church history, and I don't believe ggreg has really "struggled" with this for 20 years.

    I do however, suspect he has been stung by a pricked conscience. I have no idea how charitable (or not) ggreg is with his apparently fast financial resources, but I do know his idolatrous adoration of it is plainly un-Catholic. He knows it is in conflict with the tenets of the faith, but he would rather flirt with open heresy than to act on what his conscience demands of him and free himself from his Judaic adoration of Mammon. He is like the wealthy young man who, when faced with a difficult demand by Our Lord, "went away sad."

    Quote from: sedetrad
    Quote


    Conversely I've got friends who are evangelical Christian types, Baptists and Methodists who are very pleasant people to have around.


    There's a red flag for you.

    Quote from: sedetrad
    Quote
    They have good sized families, their children love them, they are always willing to come over and help you paint your house, weed the garden etc.  Some of them are models of virtue.  This leads me to believe that their lives on earth must be pleasing to God...


    That judgement is for God to make, not us. Good works without faith are dead... Ggreg's Protestant pals would be the first to tell him that. And as a Catholic he should know a Protestant's good works are works without faith. He should be working overtime to evangelize to them, not throwing his hands up in indifferent despair because they're "such nice people."

    Quote from: sedetrad
    Quote

    I certainly DO have a problem with the idea that 90%+ of people who reach the age of reason are damned to Hell for all eternity.  God designed the system.  He new what humans were before the fall and understood what their nature would be like after the fall.  Any God who creates intelligent beings without asking them first and then damns most of them to hell is to my way of thinking an evil monster.[/b]


    The Problem of Evil is Catholic Apologetics 101. How a man can have been a Catholic - a "traditional" Catholic no less - for decades and still be struggling with the Problem of Evil is beyond me. I smell disingenuousness here. I think it is yet another manifestation of a stung conscience being silenced with proud obstinacy.

    Pray, fast, and give as much of your surplus money as you possible can to good Catholic charities. That's my advice.


    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #5 on: August 10, 2013, 11:45:25 AM »
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  • The Protestant part is bothersome, as while Prots may seem like "good people", they refuse to submit to a priest like the Scriptures tell them in clear language they must do. How can they chew the flesh of +Jesus? Do they honor the Holy Mother as the Scriptures say? Anoint with oil? Fast? As far as I can tell, they each believe they're in the Apostolic Succession from St. Peter himself, despite Scriptural evidence that that's not possible. Prots simply have to ignore whole swathes of Scriptures to not be fearful for their family's salvation. And in Western nations, Protestants have the BEST chance to read the Holy Scriptures and seek out the Church; but they don't because they're disobedient to God. Most even sit under women teachers/pastors/priests (Anglicans) while proclaiming "sola scriptura", which is a lie. Their own "sola scriptura" motto condemns them.

    The bolded part in the OP is of course disturbing, as it demands God ask of His Creation what He might do with His Creation before God creates them. The potter doesn't have to answer to his creation; that's ludicrous. And the fall of man is basic dogma. The fewness of the Saints is illustrated throughout Holy Scriptures (Noah's Ark; the unpopularity of ALL the prophets in their own time; the condemnation of God in the Passion, and of his followers ever since). The requirement for Baptism is shockingly bold and clear in the Gospels and Epistles; the meaning of Baptism also shockingly clear. I would think even Protestants have to worry about the fewness of those who would see the Beatific Vision, but Catholics have zero excuse with our centuries upon centuries of Saints who spoke clearly about the fewness of the Saints.

    But, I'm not comfortable with a post that's from another date and forum, possibly taken out of context through no one's fault (ie, bad archives that don't parse the names and posts well). In fact when I first read this quote in the other thread, I'd thought the person who brought it over (and was later re-quoted) was the author, when the exact opposite was true. (Plus, people change their minds based on new evidence; I've seen that noted in signatures here even.)

    I can say I hope ggreg, or any Catholic, doesn't feel the way described in the quoted post.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline BTNYC

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #6 on: August 10, 2013, 11:50:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: StCeciliasGirl


    I can say I hope ggreg, or any Catholic, doesn't feel the way described in the quoted post.


    I trust by "feel" you mean "think" or "believe."

    Sorry to single you out, but that's a modern habit of language that we would do well to break.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #7 on: August 10, 2013, 12:38:53 PM »
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  • Ggreg would get along quite well with his hero Winston Churchill when he wrote this to his mother after reading Reade's anti-Christian The Martyrdom of Man:

    "Soon the bright lights of science and reason will shine through the cathedral windows and we will retire the old religious toys and go search for God ourselves."


    Offline cathman7

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #8 on: August 10, 2013, 12:50:38 PM »
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  • I hope ggreg will explain the post he made in 2011.

    To stay steadfast in the faith is increasingly difficult today but the good Lord gives enough grace. I also find it frustrating to see so many Catholics espouse all these quirkly ideas about the faith when all they would need to do is open up a good book about the Faith.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #9 on: August 10, 2013, 01:06:35 PM »
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  • Those who attach an inordinate value to "success" (in particular financial) do not insist on some "trads" actually having the Faith.

    Money is a substitute for doctrinal orthodoxy.  Indeed, the woman who said she was happy her husband was CINO is praised.  These people don't want seriously religious men in their communities, if it at all interferes in the way they wish to live their lives.

    This is really pernicious, and I think it is probably one of the main reasons why traditionalism is in such a grave position.

    Why else would the SSPX wish to be branded?

    Why would we have them trying to appease the Jєωs?

    Why do we see so much support for feminism, so much contempt and hatred for "loser" trad men?

    (in these times of inflation, low wages and unemployment)

    These people don't care about the Social Reign of Christ the King anymore.

    The trad chapel exists for them for their petty social ambitions and their family relations.

    And they actively work for liberalization in their chapels, out of contempt for Catholics and because of their unbelief.

    Offline LaramieHirsch

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    Lets discuss this heretical post by our friendly trad cath Gregg
    « Reply #10 on: August 10, 2013, 01:43:20 PM »
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  • Meh.  I'd say that it's important to realize the difference between the people and their actions within the Church vs what the Church actually teaches, as verified by sacred Scriptures.  

    Protestants have a few strengths that Catholics lack, such as Biblican knowledge and charity towards their neighbors.  Plus, they don't seem to give up and give in to liberalism.  

    Now, all they have to do is convert to the Church.
    .........................

    Before some audiences not even the possession of the exactest knowledge will make it easy for what we say to produce conviction. For argument based on knowledge implies instruction, and there are people whom one cannot instruct.  - Aristotle


    Offline Jehanne

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    « Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 03:05:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Meh.  I'd say that it's important to realize the difference between the people and their actions within the Church vs what the Church actually teaches, as verified by sacred Scriptures.  

    Protestants have a few strengths that Catholics lack, such as Biblican knowledge and charity towards their neighbors.  Plus, they don't seem to give up and give in to liberalism.  

    Now, all they have to do is convert to the Church.


    You act like Protestants are all "cut from the same cloth."  Some deny the Trinity, others are Monophysits, Nestorianists, etc.  Many support abortion, others gαy sex, etc., etc.

    Offline Nishant

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    « Reply #12 on: August 10, 2013, 04:53:11 PM »
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  • Nothing was taken out from the Gospels. What appalling liberalism at best. St. Irenaeus in the second century tells us who wrote our Gospels, when and where and to whom they wrote, having himself received it by Tradition going back to the Apostles themselves when they established the Churches throughout the world. The Gospels were penned by Apostles, like St. Matthew and St. John or disciples of Apostles, as St. Mark and St. Luke. They are essentially eyewitness accounts, demonstrably and historically, even besides being inspired and inerrant, as the Church was taught by Christ and His Apostles from whom she received them. Constantine did not affect the Gospels, he was a Christian for some time, he was baptized late because of a misunderstanding some had early on, to gain the powerful effects of this sacrament late in life. Saints like Francis of Assisi and Vincent de Paul have given and done far more for the poor both in their lives and through their orders than whole countries have done. Even today, with all the catastrophe within the Church, Christian charities, hospitals and social services perform countless works of mercy in the world. God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved, those who reject it perish through their own fault. Scripture nor Tradition nor the Church says 90% of people are going to hell, but all who go there assuredly go through their own fault.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline TheKnightVigilant

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    « Reply #13 on: August 10, 2013, 04:58:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Meh.  I'd say that it's important to realize the difference between the people and their actions within the Church vs what the Church actually teaches, as verified by sacred Scriptures.  

    Protestants have a few strengths that Catholics lack, such as Biblican knowledge and charity towards their neighbors.  Plus, they don't seem to give up and give in to liberalism.  

    Now, all they have to do is convert to the Church.


    Protestants haven't given in to liberalism? Most Protestant sects have openly pro-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ policies, including the Lutherans and Anglicans. All protestant sects embrace contraception and divorce/remarriage. They are liberals.

    Offline Tiffany

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    « Reply #14 on: August 10, 2013, 05:14:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: TheKnightVigilant
    Quote from: LaramieHirsch
    Meh.  I'd say that it's important to realize the difference between the people and their actions within the Church vs what the Church actually teaches, as verified by sacred Scriptures.  

    Protestants have a few strengths that Catholics lack, such as Biblican knowledge and charity towards their neighbors.  Plus, they don't seem to give up and give in to liberalism.  

    Now, all they have to do is convert to the Church.


    Protestants haven't given in to liberalism? Most Protestant sects have openly pro-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ policies, including the Lutherans and Anglicans. All protestant sects embrace contraception and divorce/remarriage. They are liberals.


    Not true. I know many who refuse to allow those remarried to become members of their congregation. They do not embrace contraception either.