Author Topic: King James Bible  (Read 1986 times)

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Offline Ekim

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King James Bible
« on: March 20, 2013, 08:49:21 PM »
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  • I am the only Catholic in a group of 30 serious protestants.  They sit around and discuss their King James Bibles.  They insist that the Catholic Church was changing the Bible by adding and deleting books to suit their own needs so King James standerdized the Bible to stop all of the false versions.

    I know nothing of the history of the KJB or why the Catholic Church refused it. Can any one enlighten me?  Thanks in advance.

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #1 on: March 20, 2013, 09:02:09 PM »
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  • The KJV is a masterpiece of English literature and should be respected as such.  As a Bible, however, not so much.

    What your friends are saying is simply not true.  The canon of the Old Testament for Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox, for that matter) is essentially the canon of books included in the Septuagint a Greek translation of the Bible.  There was some debate about which books belonged, but it was essentially settled long before there were ever Protestants.  Luther Desperately needed to get rid of the Second Book of Maccabees, becasue it clearly teaches prayer for the dead.  He did this, rather cleverly, but rejecting all the books that were in the Greek  (and Latin Vulgate) canon because they were not in the Hebrew canon.  Protestants generally followed suit, except for Anglicans to some extent, who like the "Apocrypha" as they call it and read those books in their services, but do not consider them inspired Scripture.  

    And if any of your friends want to ascribe the Church's canonization of the Greek and Latin list of books as anti-Semitic becasue it isn't the Hebrew canon, the Septuagint was a Jewish creation from start to finish.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    « Reply #2 on: March 20, 2013, 09:04:59 PM »
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  • Those Protestants don't know what they're talking about.

    It was the Catholics who wrote the Bible. The Protestants created their own Bible after the reformation and took out or changed whatever they didn't like. It's rather hypocritical of them to accuse the Catholic Church of changing the Bible when it is they who did so.

    I would recommend the Douay Rheims Bible.

    Offline jen51

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    « Reply #3 on: March 20, 2013, 09:17:09 PM »
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  • Most Protestants are completely ignorant of how the bible came to be. In fact, many of them, myself included before I converted, believed that Catholics added books to the bible to suit their heretical beliefs like praying for the dead.

    Usually when I get into a conversation with a Protestant friend or casual aquaintence about the Catholic bible, I simply ask them if they know where the bible came from, when it was put together, etc. I think only one has given me a confident answer, even though it was wrong.

    I actually find that discussing the differences in Catholic/Protestant bibles is a great starting point in highlighting the inconsistencies of their religion. There are so many.

    Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.
    ~James 1:27

    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #4 on: March 20, 2013, 09:24:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: ServusSpiritusSancti
    Those Protestants don't know what they're talking about.

    It was the Catholics who wrote the Bible. The Protestants created their own Bible after the reformation and took out or changed whatever they didn't like. It's rather hypocritical of them to accuse the Catholic Church of changing the Bible when it is they who did so.

    I would recommend the Douay Rheims Bible.


    Good advice, especially with the Haydock commentary.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    « Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 09:40:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    They insist that the Catholic Church was changing the Bible by adding and deleting books to suit their own needs so King James standerdized the Bible to stop all of the false versions.


    What? That's wrong. The Canon of Holy Writ had been established for centuries and merely confirmed by the Council of Trent definitively and against the Protestants.

    It was the Protestant innovators who had an array of translations (or, rather, transmogrifications) of the Sacred Scriptures: the Geneva Bible, the Bishops' Bible, the older Wycliffe version, &c. King James, as head of the new schismatic sect of that broke away from the Roman Pontiff, was compelled to gather scholars to produce an English version that he could promulgate as the standard version to be used in Anglican services instead of having the Anglican ministers chose their differing versions or even produce their own.

    The Book of Common Prayer had been through the same process and for the same reasons under the excommunicated Queen Elizabeth I: the heretics and schismatics had different mutilations of what was once the Sarum Missal that catered to their different agendas (from radical Protestants who wanted no vestige of the "Popish Mass" to conservative Anglicans who still desired to keep such things as Lady Day and Septuagesima), so Elizabeth chose a middle way between extremes and had the Book of Common Prayer published to replace the Missal, Ritual and Breviary of once-Catholic England.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 10:31:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    The KJV is a masterpiece of English literature and should be respected as such.


    It was written by heretics with the objective of furthering their anti-Catholic heretical agenda.  I accord it no respect whatsoever and would rather prefer to see every copy of it burned.

    Offline rcentros

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    « Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 12:43:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    I am the only Catholic in a group of 30 serious protestants.


    Get them to download and read the following ...

    "Where We Got The Bible" by The Right Rev. HENRY G. GRAHAM (he, himself, was a convert to Catholicism).



    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    « Reply #8 on: March 21, 2013, 01:14:07 AM »
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  • Are you consciously attempting to convert them, Ekim?  If not, or you are reasonably certain that any such attempt would likely fail, you should be studying the Scriptures with Catholics, using sound commentaries.  It is a fact that Catholics were always prohibited from consorting with heretics.

    Offline rcentros

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    « Reply #9 on: March 21, 2013, 04:01:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: rcentros
    Quote from: Ekim
    I am the only Catholic in a group of 30 serious protestants.


    Get them to download and read the following ...

    "Where We Got The Bible" by The Right Rev. HENRY G. GRAHAM (he, himself, was a convert to Catholicism).


    I couldn't find the old link to download this book, though I did find the following for online reading ...

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

    I copied and pasted that html file into LibreOffice and made a simple but clean PDF document from it. If anyone wants that PDF version, PM me and I'll be happy to send it. Or, alternately, if someone knows where it can be uploaded for downloading, I'll be happy to upload it or forward it so it can be uploaded.

    How the book concludes ...

    Quote
    Individual interpretation of the Bible—the most sublime but also the most difficult Book ever penned—can never bring satisfaction, can never give infallible certainty, can never place a man in possession of that great objective body of truth which Our Blessed Lord taught, and which it is necessary to salvation that all should believe. The experience of many centuries proves it. It can not do so because it was never meant to do so. It produces not unity, but division; not peace, but strife. Only listening to those to whom Jesus Christ said, 'He that heareth you heareth Me,' only sinking his own fads and fancies and submitting with childlike confidence to those whom the Redeemer sent out to teach in His Name and with His authority—only this, I say, will satisfy a man, and give to his intellect repose, and to his soul a 'peace that surpasseth all understanding'. Then no longer will he be tormented with contentious disputings about this passage of the Bible and that, no longer racked and rent and 'tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine', changing with the changing years. He will, on the contrary, experience a joy and comfort and certainty that nothing can shake in being able to say, 'O my God, I believe whatever Thy Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches, because Thou hast revealed it Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.' God grant that many Bible-readers and Bible-lovers may obtain the grace to make this act of faith, and pass from an unreasoning subservience to a Book to reasonable obedience and submission to its maker and defender—the Catholic and Roman Church.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #10 on: March 21, 2013, 04:10:15 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ekim
    I am the only Catholic in a group of 30 serious protestants.  They sit around and discuss their King James Bibles.  They insist that the Catholic Church was changing the Bible by adding and deleting books to suit their own needs so King James standerdized the Bible to stop all of the false versions.

    I know nothing of the history of the KJB or why the Catholic Church refused it. Can any one enlighten me?  Thanks in advance.


    Other members have well shown that it was always the Protestants who were
    attempting to change the Bible by deleting books they did not like.  Luther used
    the Jewish practice as a model because it essentially accomplished what he had
    in mind - you could say that Luther's faith (he was a Catholic priest, you know)
    was corrupted by his study of Judaism.  

    One fact that has been missed here is that Luther tried to reject the book of St.
    James because it says, "Faith without works is dead" (cf. Js. ii. 17, 20, 26).  He
    was using the Catholic principle, actually, whereby a book that contains one
    'objectionable' thing is to be discarded wholesale.  There were a number of
    books the Church rejected from the Canon of Scripture on that basis, which is
    why we ended up with the Catholic Latin Vulgate - the books that were free from
    error.  It is actually those books the Catholic Church rejected that are properly
    called the Apocrypha!  And Protestants try to hijack the term for their own use!

    I had a professor who was teaching engineering mechanics say that in a
    college setting - a class that had nothing to do with religion!  

    In the case of Luther, even though he wanted to exclude St. James (there are
    still some extant copies of his early versions that are missing the book of James)
    his friends convinced him that it was best to include it so as to not leave their
    progeny with an indefensible act that would only serve to the demise of their
    movement.  For if one book of the NT could be rejected, then why not others?  It
    was one thing to copy the practice of the Jews in rejecting 7 books of the OT,
    but to now start throwing out NT books was just too much.  So he relented, and
    included James, with the plan to re-define what James means by "works" - a
    controversy which has endured now for 500 years, fortunately.  

    This practice of boldly claiming that a word means something else was later
    modified to subtly use a word repeatedly in a new context so as to redefine it
    by a multitude of consistently different use.  This was part of the heresy of
    Modernism, and was employed most prodigiously by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin.

    I saw a Protestant preacher recently (on video) saying "Not works works,
    but works."  Their nonsense is rather laughable.

    Quote from: Anthony Benedict
    Are you consciously attempting to convert them, Ekim?  If not, or you are reasonably certain that any such attempt would likely fail, you should be studying the Scriptures with Catholics, using sound commentaries.  It is a fact that Catholics were always prohibited from consorting with heretics.


    The modern error of "dialogue" is a corrupting influence for Catholics who are
    not sufficiently strong in their Faith to deal with the heresies afoot today.

    Ekim, since as you say you know nothing of the history of the King James Version
    (KJV) or why the Church "refused" it, you are really not qualified to represent the
    Church among such a group.  The reasonable expectation you should have is that
    your own faith is subject to corruption by your attendance.  I have seen several
    well-intentioned Catholics gradually become less fervent and stop attending Mass
    after having associated with Protestant "bible studies."  

    You have to keep in mind, they call it "bible study" but it is really no such thing.
    What they are attempting to do is to re-interpret Scripture to suit their own
    predilections.  Protestants deny the authority of the Catholic Church, only to
    make of themselves their own personal pope, to the effect that there are as
    many Protestant belief systems as there are Protestants, and they do not find
    it odd that they disagree with each other.  It is tantamount to a rejection of the
    truth.  

    For, when they come together for their "study" their purpose is in presuming
    from the start that no one has the truth, so they proceed to "discover" it
    , and they
    always fail, because what they come up with is their own unique version of it,
    suited to their own particular arrangement of corruption - that is, how they 'feel'
    justified in their own favorite sins!  And therefore, what they say is "God's word"
    is not the truth, but their own personal corruption of the truth.



    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    « Reply #11 on: March 21, 2013, 04:28:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: rcentros
    Quote from: rcentros
    Quote from: Ekim
    I am the only Catholic in a group of 30 serious protestants.


    Get them to download and read the following ...

    "Where We Got The Bible" by The Right Rev. HENRY G. GRAHAM (he, himself, was a convert to Catholicism).


    I couldn't find the old link to download this book, though I did find the following for online reading ...

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

    I copied and pasted that html file into LibreOffice and made a simple but clean PDF document from it. If anyone wants that PDF version, PM me and I'll be happy to send it. Or, alternately, if someone knows where it can be uploaded for downloading, I'll be happy to upload it or forward it so it can be uploaded.


    You should see the upload feature at the bottom of your CI "Reply" screen.  
    Right under "Options" it says "Attachments - Adding or removing attachments
    will not disrupt your post."  Then on the right side, there are two buttons,
    "Browse" and "Add Attachment."  All you have to do is keep in mind where you
    saved the PDF in your system, and click on Browse, then find the file, highlight it
    and click SAVE or else just double-click on the file (I'm not sure how non-PC
    systems do it)and the PATH will appear in the window to the left of "Browse."  
    Then click on "Add Attachment" and the CI system uploads your file to your post.  

    It's that easy.


    Quote
    How the book concludes ...

    Quote
    Individual interpretation of the Bible—the most sublime but also the most difficult Book ever penned—can never bring satisfaction, can never give infallible certainty, can never place a man in possession of that great objective body of truth which Our Blessed Lord taught, and which it is necessary to salvation that all should believe. The experience of many centuries proves it. It can not do so because it was never meant to do so. It produces not unity, but division; not peace, but strife. Only listening to those to whom Jesus Christ said, 'He that heareth you heareth Me,' only sinking his own fads and fancies and submitting with childlike confidence to those whom the Redeemer sent out to teach in His Name and with His authority—only this, I say, will satisfy a man, and give to his intellect repose, and to his soul a 'peace that surpasseth all understanding'. Then no longer will he be tormented with contentious disputings about this passage of the Bible and that, no longer racked and rent and 'tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine', changing with the changing years. He will, on the contrary, experience a joy and comfort and certainty that nothing can shake in being able to say, 'O my God, I believe whatever Thy Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches, because Thou hast revealed it Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.' God grant that many Bible-readers and Bible-lovers may obtain the grace to make this act of faith, and pass from an unreasoning subservience to a Book to reasonable obedience and submission to its maker and defender—the Catholic and Roman Church.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    « Reply #12 on: March 21, 2013, 06:15:52 PM »
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  • Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline rcentros

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    « Reply #13 on: March 21, 2013, 10:56:22 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    You should see the upload feature at the bottom of your CI "Reply" screen.  Right under "Options" it says "Attachments - Adding or removing attachments will not disrupt your post."  Then on the right side, there are two buttons, "Browse" and "Add Attachment."  All you have to do is keep in mind where you saved the PDF in your system, and click on Browse, then find the file, highlight it and click SAVE or else just double-click on the file (I'm not sure how non-PC systems do it)and the PATH will appear in the window to the left of "Browse."  Then click on "Add Attachment" and the CI system uploads your file to your post.  

    It's that easy.


    Thanks. I've attached it ("Where We Got The Bible). It's a little over 700 kilobytes. Linux works the same as Windows when doing something like this.

    (Sorry for the redundancy. I did something wrong in my first attempt to attach a file and responded again, thinking I could delete this post (which I can't). If the moderator would delete this, I would appreciate it.)

    Offline rcentros

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    « Reply #14 on: March 21, 2013, 10:58:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    You should see the upload feature at the bottom of your CI "Reply" screen.  Right under "Options" it says "Attachments - Adding or removing attachments will not disrupt your post."  Then on the right side, there are two buttons, "Browse" and "Add Attachment."  All you have to do is keep in mind where you saved the PDF in your system, and click on Browse, then find the file, highlight it and click SAVE or else just double-click on the file (I'm not sure how non-PC systems do it)and the PATH will appear in the window to the left of "Browse."  Then click on "Add Attachment" and the CI system uploads your file to your post.  

    It's that easy.


    Thanks. I've attached it ("Where We Got The Bible). It's a little under 700 kilobytes. Linux works the same as Windows when doing something like this.

     

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