Author Topic: Who agrees with this? (Read 3375 times)

Trinity · « **Reply #45 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:12:53 PM »

How old are you, Carolus? How much do you know about the rights and duties of being an American?

I am doing what I can in my sphere of influence and like a snowball rolling downhill it should gather more until it hits the bottom in a size which can get things done.

gilbertgea · « **Reply #46 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:16:12 PM »

'This thread is wishful thinking and I don't mean that as a criticism, we have all probably felt this way at times, but any plans must firt be grounded in reality.'

To a large degree, it is, if we think we are going to have any real effect on the political realities of the modern world without converting our society to Catholicism.

'The first step towards making a state Catholic must be accomplished by converting the popultaion to Catholicism, this is something within the remit of the Church not Politics. As the Church is a mess and is at this moment in time not fit for task our first step before we can hope to achieve any others must be to restore the Church to her former strength, this must be achieved primarily by the Pope.'

Amen. The thing is, we cannot do this from the bottom up: Authourity doesnt come from 'the will of the people', but from God. Therefore, the Pope -- as God's representative -- needs to fix things.

'Evil flourishes when good men do nothing. And nothing is what you personally are doing when you hand it all to God and leave it at that. Try getting your car fixed that way!'

I'm not suggesting that good men do nothing. I'm suggesting that good men *pray*, marry good women, make more good people, and convert other people so that they become good men, too.

'So I say again you will not achieve anything of any worth in America until the American people convert to the Catholic Faith and the USA is entrusted to the Social Kingship of Jesus Christ. So this must be our Primary Objective.'

Again, I recommend a book called The Sword of Christendom. I think TAN and Angelus sells it.

'America has never yet had the faith...'

No, it never has, except in isolated areas, such as the French and Spanish colonial areas and (briefly) Maryland when it was a proprietary colony.

'Your speak a lot about the individual's duties to the State Gilbert but what about the States duties to God?'

The state has a positive obligation to uphold the rights of the Church. This will not occur until those who control the State become Catholic.

'So we can do nothing, but what we are doing, which has made precious little difference. One of these days, soon, Bush is going to attack Iran and we are very likely going to be in a nuclear war. But we'll be here waiting for those in authority to do something, because what must be done can only be done by those in authority.'

Our duty is not to stop nuclear war. None of us here in this forum have the authority to do that. God does not demand the impossible.

You will not be held accountable, in the end, for what society does or fails to do. You will be held accountable for the state of your soul at death. That is all.

'What, I wonder, will Our Lord say when we tell him what we did to stop this slaughter. We waited, Lord.'

It is not your responsibility to stop the slaughter. It is your responsibility to save your soul and convert others *if that is possible*. If you convert enough people, the slaughter will stop by default. But the conversion must happen first.

'God asks for our efforts, not our victories.'

Exactly. If you die in the state of Grace, you will get to heaven. If you die in a state of mortal sin, you will not. The efforts you put forth towards dying in a state of Grace is all that really matters.

'I think God wants us to go for victory.'

That is your _personal opinion_, and not, in fact, what God demands. You must be able to distinguish between the two, or you will drive yourself mad in frustration.

'This is the direct result of Americans not paying attention to business.'

You are now mixing apples and oranges. The effects of political indifference arent directly related to the conversion of society to the true Faith.

'Unless we can stop him, Bush is going to start this war with Iran, which brings in China, Russia and Syria against us.'

We cannot stop him. You cannot tell the future, so it is pointless to worry about it overmuch.

'Thousands have begun to protest this war. That is not enough; there need to be many more.'

'Protest'? On what grounds? What is the philosophical basis for your 'protest'? Why do there need to be many more?

Perhaps we're looking at this wrongly. Perhaps this war is intended to wake us up to the fact that we have offended God. You see, the United States is too powerful, militarily, to be challenged by any one state. So, perhaps God is going to use a coalition of foreign states to defeat us militarily and cause us to re-evaluate our spiritual basis?

'they executed Terri Schindler IN OUR FACES because they are arrogant and they knew they could---that all we would do is cry for some authority to save her.'

I would be willing to bet that Terri Schindler is most likely going to go to Heaven. As far as those who permitted her to die in the manner in which she did, I'm not sure where they are going, but it probably isnt going to be good.

'Had we walked in and taken her out that obscenity would not have occured. Her blood is also on our cowardly hands.'

So, why didnt you just waltz right in and take her out?

'No, they're not Catholic.'

Then, if they arent Catholic, they will not avail you to your purpose *if your purpose is truly Catholic*. My advice is to ignore them. Oecuмenical programmes *by definition* deny the True Faith.

gilbertgea · « **Reply #47 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:18:05 PM »

'How much do you know about the rights and duties of being an American?'

What about our rights and duties *as Catholics*? If the two arent the same -- and I contend that they arent always the same -- which are more important?

Trinity · « **Reply #48 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:55:35 PM »

Catholic first, American second. I'm not going to discuss what to do as Catholics anymore, because that is covered---was covered even before this forum came into existence.

The only thing I see as impossible is getting anyone here to see that we are our brothers' keeper. If what I advocate is impossible it is ONLY because you are making it impossible. We have over 200 hundred years of the peacable/legal changing of laws and authorities proving over and over that it can and sometimes should be done.

And while you two are sitting here droning on about the impossible people are being killed, robbed of their homes, thrown in jail without recourse to the legal system, beaten, besmirched, and so on. Forgetting, of course, that what you do to or for anyone, you do to or for Jesus.

If I weren't already sold on the authentic teaching of the Church I would turn away from her teaching on your example alone. Wash your hands, then, Pilate, and see if they come clean.

gilbertgea · « **Reply #49 on:** February 03, 2007, 02:26:09 PM »

'Catholic first, American second. I'm not going to discuss what to do as Catholics anymore, because that is covered---was covered even before this forum came into existence.'

Then, if you know what to do, what specifically is your question?

'The only thing I see as impossible is getting anyone here to see that we are our brothers' keeper. If what I advocate is impossible it is ONLY because you are making it impossible.'

No. What you fail to see is the distinction in terms of what must be done. Yes, we are our brothers' keeper. However, that means we are to be concerned for his Catholic Faith, first.

'We have over 200 hundred years of the peacable/legal changing of laws and authorities proving over and over that it can and sometimes should be done.'

No. What we have is over 200 years of a governmental system built upon revolution attempting to maintain itself. As you can see, it isnt working.

If political activism is your goal, then the first thing you should focus your efforts in is converting your fellow countrymen.

'And while you two are sitting here droning on about the impossible people are being killed, robbed of their homes, thrown in jail without recourse to the legal system, beaten, besmirched, and so on.'

Who, specifically, is being killed, robbed, imprisoned, beaten, etc.?

'Forgetting, of course, that what you do to or for anyone, you do to or for Jesus.'

I always try to get people to see the Catholic Truth.

'If I weren't already sold on the authentic teaching of the Church I would turn away from her teaching on your example alone.'

If you already knew the authentic teaching of the Church, there would've been no purpose to this thread.

'Wash your hands, then, Pilate, and see if they come clean.'

Did Our Lord advocate political activism? A political agenda? Did He trouble Himself with this or that political party? Did He physically put a stop to every abuse in the Roman Empire?

No. He *preached*. He *persuaded*. And, He suffered martyrdom, in the end, instead of calling down the Wrath of God on His persecutors and destroying them. When He 'did something', He taught the Faith.

Which should be our primary concern: building Catholic networks, supporting our Churches, teaching the Faith, expanding the numbers of those who think, act, and are Catholic.

Trinity · « **Reply #50 on:** February 03, 2007, 03:22:59 PM »

Ok, Gilbert, Catholic faith first. What is second????

gilbertgea · « **Reply #51 on:** February 03, 2007, 04:06:30 PM »

'Ok, Gilbert, Catholic faith first.'

Trinity, without trying to appear 'clever' or 'cute', the answer is simply this: be Catholic.

Know the Faith. Live by the Faith. *Teach* the Faith to others... especially to your children, grandchildren, etc.

The key, to use a cliche, is in the 'hearts and minds': we must convert our fellow countrymen to the Faith. To do that you must know the Faith and set a Catholic example.

At the same time, we must form a solid network of fellow traditional Catholics, in my opinion; a sort of 'mutual aid association' that seeks out each other's company and treats each other with preference.

That includes such things as establishing schools, attending traditional Catholic functions, and so on.

I strongly advocate and encourage supporting the Society of St. Pius X. They are about all that is really left of Catholic Tradition. (And I am not willing to argue or otherwise 'prove' the point.)

Do you participate in retreats? Pilgrimages? Do you know when the ordinations of priests are? Do you attend those?

Do you subscribe to traditional Catholic publications? Do you share them with others?

Really, there are so many things that we could be doing that are within our control: let us focus on those and not on the things that are beyond our control.

Trinity · « **Reply #52 on:** February 03, 2007, 04:54:46 PM »

Gilbert, take your head games and play them with a mirror. It is disgusting for one to call himself a Catholic and play mind games on people.

gilbertgea · « **Reply #53 on:** February 03, 2007, 07:49:44 PM »

'Gilbert, take your head games and play them with a mirror. It is disgusting for one to call himself a Catholic and play mind games on people.'

Trinity, I dont understand your meaning. I assure you that I am not playing games with you or with anyone else. I dont even really know what that means.

Just look at the situation honestly: what is it that you intend to accomplish? Then, as a Catholic, figure out how you intend to get there. The more you study the Faith, the more you will realise that our only hope lies in the spiritual realm, if you will: in coverting our fellow countrymen to the Faith.

It would take a miracle, I'll grant you. But, our religion is based on miracles!

God bless you.

Vandaler · « **Reply #54 on:** February 03, 2007, 08:17:49 PM »

Thank you Gilbert,

Your kind of talk lacks in trad. circles. I believe your priorities are in the right place.

I personnally would project the same kind of focus, but am far to much a failed, broken Catholic to do it with authority.

Thank you, reading you has been encouraging.

(I'll leave aside where I don't agree, as to not spoil the celebration)

Carolus Magnus · « **Reply #55 on:** February 04, 2007, 10:59:59 AM »

Quote from: Trinity

Gilbert, take your head games and play them with a mirror. It is disgusting for one to call himself a Catholic and play mind games on people.

Trinity Gilbert is not playing mind games he is trying to explains things reasonably as I was trying to do previously, to start questioning his Catholicity just because he doesn't agree with you is unfair.

This debate has no where else to go from here Gilbert has pretty much summed my position up as well so I will leave it at that, you can now consider what we have both said and then accept or reject them as you wish.