Author Topic: Keeping in the faith during the crisis  (Read 2930 times)

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Offline knish

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Keeping in the faith during the crisis
« on: May 25, 2016, 11:33:43 AM »
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  • How do you keep the faith in this crisis? I'm finding it increasingly difficult. Everywhere I look, it seems there's holes, and I'm finding it very difficult to actually believe that Rome is still Rome and not an apostate Church. Yet, I can't accept sedevacantism. Sedevacantism requires the fall of the Church -- this is the truth. What's more, 200 years from now we all know the sedes will be claiming a 250 year interregnum does not call into question Christ's promise. Perhaps, you have better faith than me.

    What put me over the edge was NC Register's interview with Cardinal Müller. He made it very clear, the Novus Ordo Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church of Christ cannot teach religious liberty, as this is a condemned heresy.

    It's just so difficult to see the light. I don't know what to do anymore. Anyway, just asking for some help on how NOT to fall into despair.
    Instaurare Omnia in Christo

    It is better that the truth be known than that scandal be covered up.  - St. Augustine

    Offline Alexandria

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 11:56:40 AM »
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  • No, we don't know that at all what will be proclaimed by anyone in 200 years, or if we will even still be here in 200 years.  How could we?

    Don't fall into despair.  That's exactly what satan wants.  For you to give up hope.  It is Christ's Church after all.  He knows what He is about and what He is doing.  Just live the Faith as best as you can and leave the other details to Him.  



    Offline SanMateo

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #2 on: May 25, 2016, 11:57:15 AM »
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  • The Cardinal Muller interview bothered me as well.  It is definitely hard to keep the faith these days.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #3 on: May 25, 2016, 12:09:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: knish
    How do you keep the faith in this crisis? I'm finding it increasingly difficult. Everywhere I look, it seems there's holes, and I'm finding it very difficult to actually believe that Rome is still Rome and not an apostate Church. Yet, I can't accept sedevacantism. Sedevacantism requires the fall of the Church -- this is the truth. What's more, 200 years from now we all know the sedes will be claiming a 250 year interregnum does not call into question Christ's promise. Perhaps, you have better faith than me.

    What put me over the edge was NC Register's interview with Cardinal Müller. He made it very clear, the Novus Ordo Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church of Christ cannot teach religious liberty, as this is a condemned heresy.

    It's just so difficult to see the light. I don't know what to do anymore. Anyway, just asking for some help on how NOT to fall into despair.


    1. Don't try to understand the Crisis fully, as completely as you understand how toast is made in your toaster.

    2. Don't spend too much time studying the Crisis either.

    3. Related to #2, don't try to solve the Crisis. Bishops and priests aren't up to the task, what makes you think you are qualified to help?

    4. What you DO need to do is stay Catholic. Learn the Catholic Faith from pre-Vatican II books and catechisms. Learn the basics and teachings of the various modern errors (Liberalism, Modernism, Freemasonry, feminism, etc.) from Papal encyclicals, just so you aren't ignorant, but then put those books down. Don't dive deep into the workings, ceremonies, symbolism of the Freemasons for example.

    5. Read Lives of the Saints, and make sure you have a sacramental/prayer life. Make sure your reading/thinking about the Crisis is proportionate to the time you spend "just being Catholic". That is how you stay sane.
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    Offline OHCA

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #4 on: May 25, 2016, 12:26:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: knish
    ...Yet, I can't accept sedevacantism. Sedevacantism requires the fall of the Church...


    That's was my first reaction upon being introduced to sedevacantism.  Myrna and Emerentia responded with some things countering that thought--namely that it's just the opposite--that if the Church is really teaching heresy that's when the gates of hell have prevailed.  I know that sounds simplistic.  But it got me to looking into sedevacantism more.  I looked into it on my own and decided that they are right.  I looked at some of St. Robert Belladmine's writings among other things.  I am not dogmatic sedevacantist--I'm not even certain myself.  But I lean heavily that direction.  Anybody on either side who thinks they have the crisis figured out with 100% certainty is playing with fire.


    Offline Matthew

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    Offline Peccator Marison

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #6 on: May 25, 2016, 12:39:49 PM »
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  • As keeping the Faith is mentioned, we must realise how contagious and how vile the modern world is -- the television is Beelzebub's most ingenious invention, the Internet is nine-point-nine-eight tenths bad, the media, of course, is all owned and controlled by Jews and Masons. Even when it is not openly obscene it is godless, materialistic and liberal.

    Flee them, no matter how innocuous. Have no worldly friends, their example is contagious, watch no films, no videos -- all are spawned by centuries of Liberalism, the Enlightenment, rot, decay. Would we go and stay in a plague-stricken house or drink from water percolating through a cesspit?

    This may seem elementary: but remember Bishop Fellay. A Bishop in all his splendour at the right hand of Archbishop Lefebvre, a Prince of the Church in his glory: but he has listened to the siren voices of New Rome and of the World: these will seduce us from the Faith. Flee for your souls!
    Better a lonely man with the Faith! Apart from that, the Rosary, sacramentals, prayer. God will triumph and to suffer is bliss.

    Offline Alexandria

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #7 on: May 25, 2016, 12:48:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Peccator Marison
    As keeping the Faith is mentioned, we must realise how contagious and how vile the modern world is -- the television is Beelzebub's most ingenious invention, the Internet is nine-point-nine-eight tenths bad, the media, of course, is all owned and controlled by Jews and Masons. Even when it is not openly obscene it is godless, materialistic and liberal.

    Flee them, no matter how innocuous. Have no worldly friends, their example is contagious, watch no films, no videos -- all are spawned by centuries of Liberalism, the Enlightenment, rot, decay. Would we go and stay in a plague-stricken house or drink from water percolating through a cesspit?

    ... Flee for your souls!
    Better a lonely man with the Faith! Apart from that, the Rosary, sacramentals, prayer. God will triumph and to suffer is bliss.


     :applause:
    Your post will not go over well with many, but you have spoken the truth, and I can vouch for that truth from my, as they say in the novus ordo church, "lived experience."

    Unless you have a specific call from Our Lord to do so, you will not escape the contagion of the evil in the world.  Without you even knowing or realizing until it is too late, is has a way of seeping into your mind. One day you realize your thinking has changed and are not sure why or how, but it has happened, and it isn't easy to straighten out again as it requires much effort and constant vigilance.  

    Even this dastardly internet.  I would never have gotten a computer, but my husband dragged it home, and once he makes up his mind, he doesn't care what or how I think.  I am trying to get myself away from the internet, but it is addictive.  It has destroyed my interior life and scattered my mind so that it is almost impossible to do any type of mental prayer.

    Forgive  my awkward and wordly way of putting this, but I happen to know not a few traditionals who are convinced they have to be "hip to be cool."  Well, good for them.  Let them live with one foot in one world and one foot in the other.  Lotsa luck.



    Offline Alexandria

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #8 on: May 25, 2016, 12:53:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    Quote from: knish
    ...Yet, I can't accept sedevacantism. Sedevacantism requires the fall of the Church...


    That's was my first reaction upon being introduced to sedevacantism.  Myrna and Emerentia responded with some things countering that thought--namely that it's just the opposite--that if the Church is really teaching heresy that's when the gates of hell have prevailed.  I know that sounds simplistic.  But it got me to looking into sedevacantism more.  I looked into it on my own and decided that they are right.  I looked at some of St. Robert Belladmine's writings among other things.  I am not dogmatic sedevacantist--I'm not even certain myself.  But I lean heavily that direction.  Anybody on either side who thinks they have the crisis figured out with 100% certainty is playing with fire.

    Yet there are many who do think they have it all figured out and have put the label "de fide" on their opinions, and they are  the ones who confuse others, or who put so much pressure on them to see everything their way, that the person just gives up and stays where they are which is usually in their local parish.

    Offline knish

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #9 on: May 25, 2016, 12:55:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: SanAmbrosi
    The Cardinal Muller interview bothered me as well.  It is definitely hard to keep the faith these days.  

    He made it very clear -- the Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church cannot teach religious liberty, for this is a heresy.
    Instaurare Omnia in Christo

    It is better that the truth be known than that scandal be covered up.  - St. Augustine

    Offline Matthew

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #10 on: May 25, 2016, 01:02:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria

    Even this dastardly internet.  I would never have gotten a computer, but my husband dragged it home, and once he makes up his mind, he doesn't care what or how I think.  I am trying to get myself away from the internet, but it is addictive.  It has destroyed my interior life and scattered my mind so that it is almost impossible to do any type of mental prayer.


    Yes, the Internet has as lot of distractions and requires self-discipline (and other prudent measures, such as keeping Internet connected PCs in a public room) to use properly.

    However, the fact remains that the Internet has allowed poor but faithful Traditional Catholics to get the truth out there.

    Cost to start a TV station: Millions
    Cost to create a movie: tens of Millions
    Cost to start a website: a few bucks, or even free.

    It's true that a lot of BAD guys can post their erroneous garbage on the Net as well, but at least Trad Catholics can link to all the good stuff, and we could stick to that. In that way, we can have free access to edifying materials (papal encyclicals, Liber Usualis, Catholic sheet music, the Summa, etc.) and good Catholic websites and social venues (forums, dating sites, etc.)

    Word of mouth and reputation are key here, with regards to sorting the wheat from the chaff.

    The Internet can be a great benefit if used properly.

    Also, TV has a powerful brainwashing ability because of the medium itself. But when you read a story, your rational brain is at least engaged, so you can consider the story critically. But unfortunately there aren't many Traditional Catholic newspapers or magazines, due to cost. But thanks to the Internet, a good man, even if he is poor, can run a truly Catholic news site or forum.

    I think putting SOME media power in the hands of good Catholic men is a good thing. Even with all the downsides.

    Think about the various Traditional Catholic men who have things to teach us: before, they'd have to publish books. Today, they can put their information in eBooks, PDFs, or a blog.
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    Offline Alexandria

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #11 on: May 25, 2016, 01:14:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: knish
    Quote from: SanAmbrosi
    The Cardinal Muller interview bothered me as well.  It is definitely hard to keep the faith these days.  

    He made it very clear -- the Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church cannot teach religious liberty, for this is a heresy.

    The Church always taught that you can't force someone to become Catholic.  If that is what Cardinal Muller is referring to, he is right (and the VII document on religious liberty states that as well).


    Offline knish

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 02:05:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Alexandria
    Quote from: knish
    Quote from: SanAmbrosi
    The Cardinal Muller interview bothered me as well.  It is definitely hard to keep the faith these days.  

    He made it very clear -- the Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church cannot teach religious liberty, for this is a heresy.

    The Church always taught that you can't force someone to become Catholic.  If that is what Cardinal Muller is referring to, he is right (and the VII document on religious liberty states that as well).


    That's not what he's referring to and that's not what Vatican II teaches (otherwise the society would have no problem with it). It's used here as the right of those to worship both publicly and privately according to their conscience.

    Condemned, repeatedly, by the Church

    Quote

    Gregory XVI - Mirari Vos
    This shameful font of indifferentism gives rise to that absurd and erroneous proposition which claims that liberty of conscience must be maintained for everyone. It spreads ruin in sacred and civil affairs, though some repeat over and over again with the greatest impudence that some advantage accrues to religion from it.

    Pope Pius IX
    And from this wholly false idea of social organization they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, especially fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by our predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, namely that the liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man, and should be proclaimed by law in every correctly established society.


    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors, Dec. 8, 1864, # 77:
    "In this age of ours it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be the only religion of the state, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever." - Condemned.

    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors, # 78:
    "Hence in certain regions of Catholic name, it has been laudably sanctioned by law that men immigrating there be allowed to have public exercises of any form of worship of their own." - Condemned.

    Pope Pius IX, Syllabus of Errors, Dec. 8, 1864, # 55:
    "The Church is to be separated from the state, and the state from the Church." - Condemned.

    Pope Leo XIII, Custodi Di Quella Fede
    "Everyone should avoid familiarity or friendship with anyone suspected of belonging to masonry or to affiliated groups.  Know them by their fruits and avoid them.  Every familiarity should be avoided, not only with those impious libertines who openly promote the character of the sect, but also with those who hide under the mask of UNIVERSAL TOLERANCE, RESPECT FOR ALL RELIGIONS, and the craving to reconcile the maxims of the Gospel with those of the revolution.  These men seek to reconcile Christ and Belial, the Church of God and the state without God.”

    St Pius X - Vehementer Nos
    That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error. Based, as it is, on the principle that the State must not recognize any religious cult, it is in the first place guilty of a great injustice to God;

    Pius XI - Quas Primas
    This same doctrine of the Kingship of Christ which we have found in the Old Testament is even more clearly taught and confirmed in the New. The Archangel, announcing to the Virgin that she should bear a Son, says that "the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father, and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    In a Catholic society, it is incumbent upon the State to be a "Catholic State," to declare and to treat Catholicism as "the religion of the State." The formal, official, and exclusive recognition and profession of Catholicism by the State in a Catholic society as its own one and only religion, in short, the establishment of Catholicism as "the religion of the State," seems necessarily contained in the very notion of the State's duty to accept and profess the true religion, therefore Catholicism, with its creed, code and cult. How else could the State, qua State, in truth accept and profess Catholicism, together with its tenet that it alone is the true religion?


    I can get you more if you like. The magisterium has consistently condemned religious liberty up until the second vatican council.
    Instaurare Omnia in Christo

    It is better that the truth be known than that scandal be covered up.  - St. Augustine

    Offline Alexandria

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 02:17:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: knish
    Quote from: Alexandria
    Quote from: knish
    Quote from: SanAmbrosi
    The Cardinal Muller interview bothered me as well.  It is definitely hard to keep the faith these days.  

    He made it very clear -- the Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church cannot teach religious liberty, for this is a heresy.

    The Church always taught that you can't force someone to become Catholic.  If that is what Cardinal Muller is referring to, he is right (and the VII document on religious liberty states that as well).


    That's not what he's referring to and that's not what Vatican II teaches (otherwise the society would have no problem with it). It's used here as the right of those to worship both publicly and privately according to their conscience.

    Condemned, repeatedly, by the Church



    I can get you more if you like. The magisterium has consistently condemned religious liberty up until the second vatican council.


    Bless your heart, dear, but I was kneeling in traditional chapels probably before you were born.

    I know quite well what is in the VII document on religious liberty, and what I wrote is what is stated in it up front.  It is followed by the usual "however" and "but" to undo what the Church always taught, but it initially states Catholic doctrine.  Were you aware that Archbishop Lefebvre signed all of the VII documents?  Surely he would have known there was heresy in the one on religious liberty, don't you think, and not signed it.

    Archbishop Lefebvre always said that they (the SSPX) could accept the VII documents if interpreted in light of tradition.

    Why don't you get a hold of and read Michael Davies' trilogy of books "Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre"?  

    Knish, you are a beginner.  Like all beginners, you are making the mistake of thinking you know everything already.  I assure you, what you don't know is way more than you do know.

    Offline Franciscan Solitary

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    Keeping in the faith during the crisis
    « Reply #14 on: May 25, 2016, 02:17:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: knish
    How do you keep the faith in this crisis? I'm finding it increasingly difficult. Everywhere I look, it seems there's holes, and I'm finding it very difficult to actually believe that Rome is still Rome and not an apostate Church. Yet, I can't accept sedevacantism. Sedevacantism requires the fall of the Church -- this is the truth. What's more, 200 years from now we all know the sedes will be claiming a 250 year interregnum does not call into question Christ's promise. Perhaps, you have better faith than me.

    What put me over the edge was NC Register's interview with Cardinal Müller. He made it very clear, the Novus Ordo Church teaches religious liberty. Yet, the Church of Christ cannot teach religious liberty, as this is a condemned heresy.

    It's just so difficult to see the light. I don't know what to do anymore. Anyway, just asking for some help on how NOT to fall into despair.


    1. Don't try to understand the Crisis fully, as completely as you understand how toast is made in your toaster.

    2. Don't spend too much time studying the Crisis either.

    3. Related to #2, don't try to solve the Crisis. Bishops and priests aren't up to the task, what makes you think you are qualified to help?

    4. What you DO need to do is stay Catholic. Learn the Catholic Faith from pre-Vatican II books and catechisms. Learn the basics and teachings of the various modern errors (Liberalism, Modernism, Freemasonry, feminism, etc.) from Papal encyclicals, just so you aren't ignorant, but then put those books down. Don't dive deep into the workings, ceremonies, symbolism of the Freemasons for example.

    5. Read Lives of the Saints, and make sure you have a sacramental/prayer life. Make sure your reading/thinking about the Crisis is proportionate to the time you spend "just being Catholic". That is how you stay sane.

    Dear knish,

    Please understand that at present no one this side of Heaven can understand this Crisis fully.  That can not be done by any of the living now on earth.  And we must not try to solve the Crisis.  That can only be most humbly placed by us into the almighty hands of Our Lord.  He alone can resolve this Ultimate Crisis of Holy Mother Church.  He alone, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

    One way or another, this fallen world is not going to make it out alive from this Crisis.  Everything is going to be changed, and changed utterly.  Absolutely utterly.  

    This fallen world has always been completely doomed, and is at present simply more doomed than ever.  Actually that is nothing new and a mere apocalyptic End of Time is nothing for a child of God to concern herself with.  Our entire Catholic history has always been an unceasing apocalypse.  Again, nothing truly new here.  The real Apocalypse began with the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.; Catholics have been there and done that many times already.  This is just the extremely dramatic closing chapter.

    As is said:  Time to draw our drapes tightly, light some blessed candles, be humbly grateful for even these darkest of days and pray without ceasing.  If All Hell isn't literally breaking out immediately all around us, then we should count our blessings.  Because please rest assured, most of the human race is at present not so fortunate as that:  For most of the human race All Hell is now breaking out all round them.  We should gratefully enjoy what peace and happiness may come our way and live each day as if nothing much is happening.

    Because for the privileged Children of God the Days of Darkness are the most deeply joyful.  If you can, look carefully:  A grey light of dawn dimly appears on the eastern horizon.

    Please take these words however you wish, but most Catholics should humbly welcome this Great Darkness with the greatest joy that has ever been or ever shall be.

    Maranatha!
       

     

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