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Author Topic: Judging...  (Read 4478 times)

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Offline s2srea

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Judging...
« on: August 24, 2011, 12:52:42 PM »
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  • How do you defend against the false argument that "you're not supposed to judge anyone, aren't you Christian?" when pointing out the wrong doings of others? (ie being pagan, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity). It seems to be their first line of defense.


    Offline Augstine Baker

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    Judging...
    « Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 01:15:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    How do you defend against the false argument that "you're not supposed to judge anyone, aren't you Christian?" when pointing out the wrong doings of others? (ie being pagan, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity). It seems to be their first line of defense.


    usually, the person employing that tack is judging you by accusing you of being judgmental.  Absurdity ensues.


    Offline Daegus

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    Judging...
    « Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 01:20:18 PM »
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  • Psalms 36:30:

    “The mouth of the just shall meditate wisdom: and his tongue shall speak judgment.”

    1 Corinthians 2:15:

    “But the spiritual man judgeth all things; and he himself is judged of no man.”

    Perhaps if the Godless atheists, apostates, heretics, etc. bothered to read the rest of the Bible they might have noticed this. What that verse means is don't judge others unless you want to be judged by others. God did not say we could not make any judgments about anything. That would be ridiculous, or else the Church would have fallen into complete and utter heresy (and saying that is a judgment too :laugh2:) from its very beginning when it condemned many of those who are in error.

    A careful, bad-will-free examination of the Bible shows how silly this idea is - that no one can judge anything.
     
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline s2srea

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    Judging...
    « Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 02:17:40 PM »
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  • Thank you gents... very well made points...

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Judging...
    « Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 02:29:22 PM »
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  • The way I understand it is, we can correct a person; that is not judging them.   Judging them is when you actually believe they are in Hell, or even to say for sure without a doubt they are in Heaven,   we do not know, unless the Church declares someone is in Heaven, i.e. a Saint.  All we can do is HOPE they are in Heaven.  

    Correct them, telling them they are on the wrong path is not judging their soul, but in a way you are judging their actions.  Some of the greatest Saints were on the wrong path, but they repented.  
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Daegus

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    Judging...
    « Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 02:31:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    The way I understand it is, we can correct a person; that is not judging them.   Judging them is when you actually believe they are in Hell, or even to say for sure without a doubt they are in Heaven,   we do not know, unless the Church declares someone is in Heaven, i.e. a Saint.  All we can do is HOPE they are in Heaven.  

    Correct them, telling them they are on the wrong path is not judging their soul, but in a way you are judging their actions.  Some of the greatest Saints were on the wrong path, but they repented.  


    I agree that this is true, but if someone died blaspheming God, would you say it's unreasonable to say that they went to Hell? If they show no signs of repentance before they die (and you're there at their dying moment to witness this), would it be wrong to assume they were cast into eternal perdition?
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra

    Offline s2srea

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    Judging...
    « Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 02:36:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: Daegus
    I agree that this is true, but if someone died blaspheming God, would you say it's unreasonable to say that they went to Hell? If they show no signs of repentance before they die (and you're there at their dying moment to witness this), would it be wrong to assume they were cast into eternal perdition?


    I think on this point, Daegus, it would have to be stated that you believed they went to hell, if they never repented. Especially when speaking about a public figure. Nothing wrong with assuming, but we should be careful when we assume out loud.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Judging...
    « Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 04:01:21 PM »
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  • Well it would be the natural thing to do, assume, but it still would be wrong to go around and telling everyone that so and so is in Hell.  We are mere creatures and we can not take the place of God by saying it is a fact.  

    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline Man of the West

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    Judging...
    « Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 04:18:44 PM »
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  • A better exegist than I ought to weigh in on this, but for my part, I have come to the opinion that the biblical term "judgment" is equivocal. It carries the dual sense of both "forming an opinion, decreeing an assessment" and of "executing a sentence, inflicting a punishment, effecting a discomfiture." Sometimes one or the other meaning is intended, and sometimes both. The concepts were not sharply distinguished in the ancient world, and we must let the Holy Spirit of Truth and the Analogy of the Faith guide us as to which interpretation is the correct one in a given context.

    The Gospel of St. John 8:15 has Jesus talking to the Pharisees, in which he says this: You judge according to the flesh; I judge no man. This is a good proof text on which to carry out our analysis, for it contains all the various shades of meaning in a very pithy format.

    First of all, we must ask why Jesus said that he judges no man, since both he and the church he founded have ever proclaimed before all, that he is the supreme judge of heaven and earth. It can mean only that Jesus, in his First Advent, did not come to punish anybody in the flesh. There is not one record in Scripture or Tradition of the merciful redeemer punishing anyone for anything. Even the driving of the money-changers from the temple was not an act of punishment but an act of "housecleaning," as it were. His mission was one of mercy and atonement, a sacrifice pure and acceptible to God.

    On the other hand, it simply cannot mean that Jesus did not form opinions or decree assessments concerning any man, for virtually the entire Gospel consists of Jesus' assessments and decrees, declaring this one to be justified and not that one, this generation adulterous and that one less so. So the term 'judgment' which appears in the second clause of the verse, renders effectively as this: "I see all things with perfect clarity, and especially all unrighteousness, but I have not come in my human nature to punish anybody...yet." We are confirmed in our interpretation by the fragment which begins the next verse: Yet if I do judge, my judgment is true. We are likewise confirmed by the common biblical practice of employing the terms 'justice' and 'righteousness' interchangeably.

    The first clause has Jesus accusing the Parisees of judging "according to the flesh." This has two possible meanings. It can mean either that they discern not the things of the spirit, for they "know neither him nor his father" ; or that they inflict heavy fines and punishments on others, based on their own rather fleshly priorities. Both meanings are here intended, I think. The first meaning distinguishes Jesus from the Pharisees by contrasting the truth of his assessments with the falsity of their own, while the second meaning accomplishes the same feat by contrasting their hypcrisy (as it is revealed in their harshness) with his own mildness and mercy. Taking these divers meanings together and each in their proper measure, we are enabled to obtain an umproblematical and commonsensical interpretation of Scripture, which is fully harmonious with the entirety of the Gospel, and with what the Church has always believed and taught. So if I may dare an expository reworking of John 8:15, I would caste it thus:

    "You Pharisees are fleshly men who act unmercifully toward others, and you derive your authority to do so from your own claim to represent the truth, even though you are far from it. I, on the other hand, am perfect truth and perfect light, seeing all things as they are; and my punishments, were I to inflict them, would be justice itself. Yet I abjure doing so for a time in the name of mercy, for so it has pleased my father to order it."

    Here we have Jesus precisely in that mode in which we must always conceive of him, as simultaneously priest and victim, both sacrifice and king: conceding nothing to the world, declaring his infinite superiority to it, and laying down his life for it. That is the habit an manner of the true Christian. But nowhere in this analysis do we find anything to suggest that we ought to tolerate the evil deeds of others, in earnest of "not judging them." For we have received the Sprit of Truth, the same spirit which is the mind and heart of Christ; and what part has truth in falsehood, or darkness in light, or purity in impurity? The modern prophets of tolerance raise an objection to the judgments of truth, an objection which purports to be a moral objection but is rather, in its argumentative formulation, entirely epistemological: "You don't know what the truth is, so don't judge me!" We now see that this objection is founded on a false premise, the falsest of false premises; for we do know what the truth is, and the truth has set us free: free to bind and loose, to heal the sick, to raise the dead, and to set upon twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel, for the spirit we have received is one of righteousness against which all things will be measured.

    Now we are in a position to tackle the thorniest conundrum of them all. When the prophets of tolerance retort upon us with the words of Christ, and admonish us to "judge not lest we be judged," we will have ready to hand the true meaning of the Scripture, which our analysis above gives us to be this:

    "You who are my flock, do not go after the manner of the Scribes and Pharisees; for unless your righteousness (i.e. your judgment) exceeds theirs, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They follow the lusts of their own flesh, they hanker after the things of this world, they make their authority felt over others, and this is what they think will justify them. But they have no awareness of me or my father, no awareness of the truth. Their opinions are worthless and their judgments are false. You who have eaten the bread of life, what need have you of any of this worldly nonsense? You don't need to worry or fear, for you know that your father in heaven protects you. You don't need to flatter anyone or show partiality to either the rich or the poor, for you have been given a spirit that sees all things as they are, and it would be a sacrilege of the first order to pervert that spirit by mixing it with worldly sentimentalities. You do not need to exact vengence on those who persecute you for my name's sake, for a justice far greater than your own has justified you, and has you safely in its keeping. Rather you imitate me, who am king but came in the form of a slave, that the world may know that it is not of myself but of my father, of my God and your God, that I speak. If you do these things, and obstain from iniquity, then your reward will be great in the kingdom. But if you go back to the world, back to its self-concern and wickedness, then you will suffer the fire of the ungodly."

    Finally, we must now say a word about the judging of souls, which belongs only to God Himself, since we are also frequently accused of usurping that particular prerogative of the Most High, when we say, of a certain politician for instance, that he is not in a state of grace, and should not receive Holy Communion, because he supports abortion. The prophets of tolerance then remind us that "no one knows what passes between a soul and God," as if the likes of Ted Kennedy could be presumed sanctified on the basis of a number of such hypothetical secret communicatons, for which there is not the slightest evidence whatsoever. All that should be said on this subject right now, is that in the term 'judgment,' as it concerns God's prerogative to judge a soul, the emphasis is on the second sense of the word, that of inflicting a punishment or effecting a change of state; for it is incontravertible that only God has the power to raise a soul to heaven or to cast it into hell. And while it remains true that the inmost recesses of a soul or known in their entirety only to God, it is not true that the inmost recesses do not tell upon the outmost recesses, or that we have no means of knowing who is living a righteous life and who isn't. Virtue and innocence, and their opposites, are generally perceptible to both the sensible and spiritual faculties. There are exceptions here and there, as there always are; but the common case cannot by definition be an exception. These truths are elementary, and the obscuration of them by the conciliar establishment is one of the surer marks of its incipient worldliness.

    The matter of individual judgments having (hopefully) been settled, the debate should now center upon whether or not a Christian, through the instrumentality of the state, should seek for the redress of grievances committed against him in the temporal sphere, and whether the state has the authority to redress such wrongs and administer the appropriate punishments at all. All I would say at this juncture is that the ordinary magisterium of the Church has answered both questions overwhelmingly in the affirmative, and that the contrary would be utterly unworkable. It is, in fact, among the duties of the Christian monarch to keep the peace in his realm, and to ensure the operations of justice in the practical order. This should silence the perorations of the anti-death penalty crowd, with their constant calls for leniency and clemency, and should also throw a baleful light upon the protections afforded by the conciliar establishment to its pedophile priests. But this is another debate for another post.
    Confronting modernity from the depths of the human spirit, in communion with Christ the King.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Judging...
    « Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 05:55:27 PM »
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  • I think the bottom line is, we can and should judge acts.  We must do so in ways that accord with reason and Church teaching, of course.  We can not judge the state of the soul of any other person.  We do not know where they stand before God formally, and we can never know if any particular person, no matter how evil he or she appeared to be, repented in the end.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline s2srea

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    Judging...
    « Reply #10 on: November 10, 2011, 01:29:05 PM »
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  • There was a GREAT little piece written by Raoul recently that I think is well executed. Wanted to share it here. Its a little out of context, but I left it as is so that you could read it.

    Raoul Said:
    Judging someone's objective actions as being evil or wrong-headed is not "the pot calling the kettle black." It doesn't mean that the people who are complaining about Diego are also commiting evil or wrong-headed actions.

    Many, many, MANY evils of our time arise from a superstitious, fearful and craven (mis)understanding of the concept "Don't judge." It is so bad that people will defend child molesters while attacking those they persecute, because they don't want to see the problem and admit to the existence of sin in their perfect little worlds; that is how twisted this false charity has become. Or in the case of some in the SSPX, they will attack sedes yet cut incredible amounts of slack for the anti-Popes.

    What Jesus actually meant was that we should be aware that we are all sinners, and not condemn anyone else as if they are reprobates without hope of ever changing or attaining redemption. That may seem like it fits your cartoon but no, it doesn't, because certainly we can judge an ACTION as objectively good or evil. We just don't have final judgment over the soul; that belongs to God. We don't get to say "You're a bad person, you're condemned." We can say "You're doing the wrong thing," or "You're an enemy" ( while praying for said enemy ).

    If we weren't meant to question any fellow Catholics, why does Christ talk about loving our enemies? Because he is most certainly talking about other Catholics, at least in part. We will all have enemies among the Catholics. Friends may become enemies; and enemies may become friends.

    Asking for someone with little control over his mouth to be banned from the site is not calling your brother "raka." It is an act of charity, since this person most likely is committing sins of calumny and slander. At any rate he does nothing but gossip.

    If people would just understand more about the various kinds of judgment, they would not be so easy to sucker for decade after decade. We are not asked to know the heart; but we are asked to be wise as serpents, and soft as doves.


    Offline Diego

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    Judging...
    « Reply #11 on: November 10, 2011, 02:08:42 PM »
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  • I see a major flaw in the "greatness" of Raoul's piece.

    He and my other critics were wrong about who I am and what I am.

    Further, even after discovering they were wrong, only s2srea had the Catholic decency to apologize.

    We all have a duty to justice and humility. Justice demands evidence (beyond wild suspicions) and reparation when wrong.

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Judging...
    « Reply #12 on: November 10, 2011, 06:11:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Diego
    I see a major flaw in the "greatness" of Raoul's piece.

    He and my other critics were wrong about who I am and what I am.

    Further, even after discovering they were wrong, only s2srea had the Catholic decency to apologize.

    We all have a duty to justice and humility. Justice demands evidence (beyond wild suspicions) and reparation when wrong.



    Where were they wrong? Please do tell.


    I get a fishy feeling about you Diego. And your name reminds me of Othello's Iago, so that doesn't bode well already since names have a funny way of revealing one's intentions. (EX. Ratzinger)

    Offline Diego

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    Judging...
    « Reply #13 on: November 10, 2011, 07:11:37 PM »
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  • Well, they started with their "fishy feelings" and ran wild with that. Consider how "your name reminds me of Othello's Iago, so that doesn't bode well already since names have a funny way of revealing one's intentions" sounds. I have not even read Othello, never enjoyed any of the Shakespeare I read at all, so I don't have a clue what you are imagining from the name Diego.

    You'd think I was nuts if I started working out on your screen name.  Look how touchy "SpiritusSanctus" is about his/her screen name. How "fishy" do you think "Party is Over" bodes?  What "intentions" am I supposed to discern"? a burned out partier?  I am not making an accusation or even intending to insult you, but do you see how off-the-wall such "fishy feelings" are?

    I mean, really, if someone's screen name was Beelzebub I'd see your point, but Diego??? Give me a break.  Give all of us a break.

    For starters, because I stated that they were attacking him on the basis of imaginings, they thought I was Capistrano, claimed that I had registered within days of him. In fact I registered about a year and a half before him. Then they expressed "suspicion" that I was Richard Ibryani (sp?), so I researched him, and find out he is a sede when I am not. All in all very obnoxious. Poetically akin to being surrounded by a pack of howling hyenas hovering on the edge of the fading campfire light.

    Frankly, I'd rather not plow that field again, BUT they were wrong in every suspicion they articulated and, as I said, excepting s2srea, didn't even have the Catholic decency to apologize for badgering me on the basis of "suspicions." Yes, it has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Do you now want to make the taste more bitter? Do you want to badger me because you read Othello and I have not?

    While I have no affinity for that modernist "subsisting in" the Chair of Peter, he did not choose his family name, so by what necromancy do you divine that his family name indicates his intentions? Say a Rosary and get a grip—PLEASE!

    Offline Diego

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    Judging...
    « Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 07:36:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea


    Raoul Said: What Jesus actually meant was that we should be aware that we are all sinners, and not condemn anyone else as if they are reprobates without hope of ever changing or attaining redemption...


    What Jesus SAID was:

    Quote
    Judge not, that you may not be judged, For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.


    I think that Jesus MEANT exactly what he SAID.