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Author Topic: John 23 Mason and Modernist  (Read 2710 times)

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Offline Exurge

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John 23 Mason and Modernist
« on: April 06, 2014, 06:13:17 PM »
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  • What is the best or surest evidence there is of this, if there is any.


    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #1 on: April 06, 2014, 06:39:40 PM »
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  • The fact that he called the Council and opened with a speech to the effect of throwing open the doors and windows of the Church to change is quite telling with regard to his modernism.  Someone else will have to cite the source because I don't have time to find it today, but he ignored wise counsel that modernists would dominate a Council at that time.  He was either an idiot or a modernists or both.


    Offline Exurge

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    « Reply #2 on: April 06, 2014, 06:44:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: OHCA
    The fact that he called the Council and opened with a speech to the effect of throwing open the doors and windows of the Church to change is quite telling with regard to his modernism.  Someone else will have to cite the source because I don't have time to find it today, but he ignored wise counsel that modernists would dominate a Council at that time.  He was either an idiot or a modernists or both.


    Yeah. There's also the story they tell of him looking at a docuмent that stated he was suspected of modernism and that he scoffed at it. Does anyone have authentic evidence of that?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #3 on: April 07, 2014, 06:07:15 AM »
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  • I would read the book Nikita Roncalli.  Just do a Google search for the term and the first link that comes up is a free PDF download.

    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #4 on: April 07, 2014, 03:42:12 PM »
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  • Many think of Pope John XX111 wrongly:



    OPENING SPEECH FOR COUNCIL OF VATICAN II

    POPE JOHN XXIII, OCTOBER 11, 1962



    But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.


    The Church's solicitude to promote and defend truth derives from the fact that, according to the plan of God, who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (l Tim. 2:4), men without the assistance of the whole of revealed doctrine cannot reach a complete and firm unity of minds, with which are associated true peace and eternal salvation.


    In this regard, it is a source of considerable sorrow to see that the greater part of the human race -- although all men who are born were redeemed by the blood of Christ -- does not yet participate in those  sources of divine grace which exist in the Catholic Church. Hence the Church, whose light illumines all, whose strength of supernatural unity redounds to the advantage of all humanity, is rightly described in these beautiful words of St. Cyprian:

    "The Church, surrounded by divine light, spreads her rays over the entire earth. This light, however, is one and unique and shines everywhere without causing any separation in the unity of the body. She extends her branches over the whole world. By her fruitfulness she sends ever farther afield he rivulets. Nevertheless, the head is always one, the origin one for she is the one mother, abundantly fruitful. We are born of her, are nourished by her milk, we live of her spirit' (De Catholicae Eccles. Unitate, 5).



    Nothing ecuмenical here! The truth is that the council was heisted:





    "This time we are going to stay in the Church, and we are going to dismantle the Catholic Church from within."


    Hans Küng (1928- present) Vatican II Theologian



    "We have used ambiguous terms during the Council, and we know how we shall interpret them afterwards."


    Father Eduard Schillebeeckx (1914-2009) Vatican II Theologian




    The last words of Pope John XX111

    "Stop the Council; stop the Council!"



    See:

    http://www.traditio.com/papal/john23.htm



    Offline Exurge

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    « Reply #5 on: April 07, 2014, 06:08:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    Many think of Pope John XX111 wrongly:



    OPENING SPEECH FOR COUNCIL OF VATICAN II

    POPE JOHN XXIII, OCTOBER 11, 1962



    But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.


    The Church's solicitude to promote and defend truth derives from the fact that, according to the plan of God, who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (l Tim. 2:4), men without the assistance of the whole of revealed doctrine cannot reach a complete and firm unity of minds, with which are associated true peace and eternal salvation.


    In this regard, it is a source of considerable sorrow to see that the greater part of the human race -- although all men who are born were redeemed by the blood of Christ -- does not yet participate in those  sources of divine grace which exist in the Catholic Church. Hence the Church, whose light illumines all, whose strength of supernatural unity redounds to the advantage of all humanity, is rightly described in these beautiful words of St. Cyprian:

    "The Church, surrounded by divine light, spreads her rays over the entire earth. This light, however, is one and unique and shines everywhere without causing any separation in the unity of the body. She extends her branches over the whole world. By her fruitfulness she sends ever farther afield he rivulets. Nevertheless, the head is always one, the origin one for she is the one mother, abundantly fruitful. We are born of her, are nourished by her milk, we live of her spirit' (De Catholicae Eccles. Unitate, 5).



    Nothing ecuмenical here! The truth is that the council was heisted:





    "This time we are going to stay in the Church, and we are going to dismantle the Catholic Church from within."


    Hans Küng (1928- present) Vatican II Theologian



    "We have used ambiguous terms during the Council, and we know how we shall interpret them afterwards."


    Father Eduard Schillebeeckx (1914-2009) Vatican II Theologian




    The last words of Pope John XX111

    "Stop the Council; stop the Council!"



    See:

    http://www.traditio.com/papal/john23.htm



    I'd like to see the exact sources for those quotes from Kung and Schillebeeckx.

    Offline OHCA

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    « Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 12:14:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: andysloan
    Many think of Pope John XX111 wrongly:



    OPENING SPEECH FOR COUNCIL OF VATICAN II

    POPE JOHN XXIII, OCTOBER 11, 1962



    But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.


    The Church's solicitude to promote and defend truth derives from the fact that, according to the plan of God, who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (l Tim. 2:4), men without the assistance of the whole of revealed doctrine cannot reach a complete and firm unity of minds, with which are associated true peace and eternal salvation.


    In this regard, it is a source of considerable sorrow to see that the greater part of the human race -- although all men who are born were redeemed by the blood of Christ -- does not yet participate in those  sources of divine grace which exist in the Catholic Church. Hence the Church, whose light illumines all, whose strength of supernatural unity redounds to the advantage of all humanity, is rightly described in these beautiful words of St. Cyprian:

    "The Church, surrounded by divine light, spreads her rays over the entire earth. This light, however, is one and unique and shines everywhere without causing any separation in the unity of the body. She extends her branches over the whole world. By her fruitfulness she sends ever farther afield he rivulets. Nevertheless, the head is always one, the origin one for she is the one mother, abundantly fruitful. We are born of her, are nourished by her milk, we live of her spirit' (De Catholicae Eccles. Unitate, 5).



    Nothing ecuмenical here! The truth is that the council was heisted:





    "This time we are going to stay in the Church, and we are going to dismantle the Catholic Church from within."


    Hans Küng (1928- present) Vatican II Theologian



    "We have used ambiguous terms during the Council, and we know how we shall interpret them afterwards."


    Father Eduard Schillebeeckx (1914-2009) Vatican II Theologian




    The last words of Pope John XX111

    "Stop the Council; stop the Council!"



    See:

    http://www.traditio.com/papal/john23.htm



    If it was "heisted," then it was obvious early on.  Why didn't he shut it down before he was on his deathbed (if one believes that quote)?

    Offline glaston

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    « Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 06:44:55 AM »
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  • "This time we are going to stay in the Church, and we are going to dismantle the Catholic Church from within."

    Hans Küng (1928- present) Vatican II Theologian

    That sort of quote is also direct from highest degrees of Masonry (= Satanism), whereby they reduce things (society - immigrant non mixing) to lowest common denominator - chaos, murder, riots etc

    They call it "Ordo Ab Chao" - "Order Out of Chaos or Order from Disorder."

    By doing this they intend to introduce a new luciferic religion and you will be forced to attend too.

    Satanic Luci-feric (ferrum) "relating to luci-fer "
    - ever noticed the " iron" (ye olde blacksmith) in the word?

    (The 'Iron' lady )
    - Eastern Star mason?,
    11 years in power,
    Resigned as PM - Opening remarks to the Cabinet on 22 November(11) 1990  
    resigned from politics after representing Fulham for 33 years!)
    Check out all the Masonic/Satanist 11's or multiples of!


    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 07:21:46 AM »
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  • To OHCA:


    http://www.traditio.com/papal/john23.htm


     Pope John XXIII (1958-1963)
    Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli (1881-1963)

    Pope John XXIII summoned the Italian bishops to the Roman Synod of 1959 as an anticipation of the Second Vatican council. In a massive reaffirmation of traditional practice, the pope solemnly confirmed the use of Latin, condemned all attempts at creativity on the part of the celebrant of Holy Mass, ordered Gregorian Chant, and forbade women entry to the altar area.

    A year later the pope issued his Apostolic Constitution Veterum Sapientia, On Promoting the Study of Latin, as the Church's cultural and religious heritage and as its living language -- universal, immutable, and non-vernacular. He bound bishops to "be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, being eager for innovation, write against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy See's will in this regard or interprets it fa1sely." He attributed a very special importance to this docuмent, promulgating it with a solemnity unique in the history of the present century -- in person, in St. Peter's upon the Confession of St. Peter himself, and in the presence of the cardinals and of the Roman clergy.

    When he opened the Second Vatican Council on October 11, 1962, Pope John XXIII charged the Council Fathers "that the Sacred Deposit of Christian Doctrine should be guarded and taught more efficaciously [with a] renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teachings of the Church in their entirety and preciseness, as they still shine forth in the acts of the Council of Trent and the First Vatican Council."

    In fact, the Second Vatican Council was apparently a great disappointment to the pope. According to Anne Muggeridge, the daughter-in-law of the famous British Catholic convert and journalist Malcolm Muggeridge), in The Desolate City, John Cardinal Heenan of Westminster reported that when, during the rebellious first session of the Council, the pope realized that the papacy had lost control of the process, he attempted to organize a group of bishops to try to force it to an end.

    Malcolm Muggeridge, who reported from Rome on the Second Vatican Council for the British Broadcasting Corporation, considered Pope John "politically naive and unduly influenced by the handful of 'liberal' clerics with whom he is in close contact." In a 1985 interview, he gave his assessment of the pope thus:

        Really Pope John -- who was built up as a saintly and perfect pope, the good man of our time -- whether consciously or unconsciously, did more damage to the Church than possibly any other individual man had ever done in the whole of its history.... It seemed almost as though Pope John was operating on behalf of the devil without being in any way conscious of it.

    Whatever Pope John's disposition was, however, before the second session of the council could open, he died. His last words on his deathbed, as reported by Jean Guitton, the only Catholic layman to serve as a peritus at the Council, were: "Stop the Council; stop the Council." In any case, it is a fact that Pope John signed not one docuмent of the Second Vatican Council.


    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 08:49:09 AM »
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  • To Exurge



    "We have used ambiguous terms during the Council, and we know how we shall interpret them afterwards."


    Father Eduard Schillebeeckx (1914-2009) Vatican II Theologian



    Cited from the Dutch magazine De Bazuin, No. 16, 1965, in Iota Unum, by Romano Amerio, Kansas City, MO: Sart House, 1996)


    Also:

    Quoted from - Open letter to confused Catholics:


    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jgsl1kHs-kUC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=%22We+have+used+ambiguous+terms+during+the+Council,+and+we+know+how+we+shall+interpret+them+afterwards.%22&source=bl&ots=MA5DTu8LYc&sig=-lyaG5imOy89Iped8uNran_rVI8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=je1DU7C9Msi90QX8s4BA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22We%20have%20used%20ambiguous%20terms%20during%20the%20Council%2C%20and%20we%20know%20how%20we%20shall%20interpret%20them%20afterwards.%22&f=false



    Hans Kung Quote
    - cannot find original source but referenced on Traditio site (1/3 rd way down):


    http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/relquote.txt







    "Let  no innovator dare to write against the use of Latin in the
    sacred rites ... nor let them in their folly attempt to minimize the will of the
    Apostolic See in this matter."

    Pope John XXIII, Apostolic Constitution
    Veterum Sapientia, February 22, 1962




    "I don't want to have anything to do with the Vatican.  The devil is
    in the Vatican."  

    Albino Cardinal Luciani, later Pope John Paul I, on his
    pilgrimage to Fatima, July 1977





      " First, there is the mafia in the Church, the prelates who have not
    only lost their faith but who remain in the Church in order to destroy the
    Church; otherwise, they would leave the Church.  If I would lose my faith, I
    would leave the Church.  But to lose the faith and remain in the Church,
    there must be some reason for that.  They use the slogan "progress" as a
    means to camouflage their diabolical work of destruction and to fool the
    faithful, in order to draw them away from Christ and His holy Church.  They
    are real servants of the anti-Christ.  --Dr. Dietrich von Hildebrand

    Offline cassini

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    « Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 11:05:38 AM »
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  • Google in Mary Ball Martinez and see she wrote books on John XXIII. She was a journalist in the Vatican and saw it all.

    Do not forget JP2.

    On January 3rd, 1997, the following report appeared in The Catholic Herald, an English weekly church newspaper:

    ‘The Grand Orient of Italy decided to award the Pontiff Pope John Paul II with the Order of Galileo Galilei, the highest form of recognition able to be made by Italy’s Freemasons to a non-member, in recognition for his promotion of universal Masonic values of fraternity, respect for the dignity of man, and the spirit of tolerance… Our intention is to pay homage to a man who, unlike his predecessors, showed himself to be extremely open-minded, rehabilitating Galileo, promoting a critical analysis of the Inquisition [etc.].’

    The Alta Vendita,’  otherwise known as the ‘Alta Vendita Plan’ discovered in 1820, whose ultimate end is that of Voltaire and of the French Revolution, and which speaks of working for a generation that will rejoice in having a pope ‘according to our wants’ and of a clergy who will ‘march under our banner in the belief always that they march under the banner of the Apostolic Keys.’

    The secret papers of the Alta Vendita (written in the early 1800s), highest lodge of the Italian secret society, the Carbonari, acquired by Pope Gregory XVI and, on the orders of Pope Pius IX and Pope Leo XIII, was published by Cretineau-Joly in his work The Roman Church and Revolution, reprinted in 1885 and many times after that.


    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 11:19:08 AM »
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  • From 1970's Exorcism



    June 18, 1977

    E = Exorcist

    B = Beelzebub

     
    JOHN XXIII AND THE COUNCIL

    E: In the name of the Most Blessed Virgin, tell us the truth!

    B: John XXIII commenced his pontificate in 1958; this John was not especially intelligent, he was not particularly learned. We would rather not talk on that subject.

    E: But now, is he up in Heaven?

    B: Alas, She (he points upward) would like us to say something about him and the damned Council but that is precisely what we do not want to do. You will have much plainer sailing everywhere if you do not talk about the Council and just simply go on your way.

    E: In the name... say only what the Blessed Virgin wishes!

    B: Alas, She wishes too much of it - too much of it! (He sighs)

    E: Say what She wishes!

    B: In 1958, John commenced his pontificate; it was an emergency solution, you could say, but still, it was he who arrived. He was pious and had good intentions, although things did not always turn out as he had foreseen. The fact remains that he convoked the Council, and he would have done better had he refrained from doing so.

    E: From what point of view would it have been better if he had refrained from doing so?

    B: From the point of view of up there (he points upward)

    E: Tell the truth!

    B: We don't want to say this; we have no wish to preach.

    E: From the point of view of down below (he points downward), how was it?

    B: Good! It was like this: it was not provided for, up there,[28] that in the end, the baby would be thrown out with the bath-water. Those up there had not wanted that. But things being what they are now, it would have been better if the Council had not been convoked. There were, it is true, some things which could be said were in need of a renewal. But things being what they are now, the baby has been thrown out with the bath-water so completely that the water can run out, the Devil knows to where, and all that remains in the bathtub is the filth and the dirt of the child who was in the bath. It would have been better...

    E: By “the baby”, you mean the Holy Church?

    B: Yes, the Church and the Council. With the Council, a very great mistake was made. I mean that it is not without good reason that Pope John has said... (he breaks off). Even today, he would be turning in his grave is he knew what its results are.

    E: Doesn't he know?

    B: Of course he knows. He already saw on his deathbed that it was not very smart. But it was already much too late. He did not know that this Council would have such deplorable, destructive, catastrophic, frightful consequences. He thought he was doing the right thing. He had good will. He believed that he was doing everything for the greatest good of the Church. He wished to renew what little needed renewing.

    Could he know that later, those cardinals, those fraudulent imitations of cardinals, those evil cardinals, would snatch the scepter from his hands and would plunge everything into this terrible state? Could he know that? He acted in good faith, so he reached Heaven -at all events, he is saved.

    E: In the name... tell the truth and nothing but the truth!

    B: He was humble and good, but he was not very gifted. At that time, it would have been necessary to install a very gifted Pope, knowing how to govern the Church and to maintain his authority in such a way that he could not be countermanded. But he learned that too late. But, everything considered, it was in the plans of Those up there (he points upward) because the Scriptures must be wholly fulfilled. Everything was in their plan, but all the same, it is a lamentable sight for Those up there to see the present situation.

    E: In the name of the Father... B: He suffered bitterly for it on his deathbed, and he sent for some of his intimate friends, or those whom he thought were loyal to him. He told them that he would like to shout to the world: “If only I had not convoked this Council!”

    Because he now saw the frightful consequences of it. but was able to do nothing more, and because he was now on his death-bed and could no longer do anything at ail to stop everything -may the Lord wish to be merciful to him; that was all he could still say. Let the others, the so-called Heaven, to make that known to the world and also to the next Pope.

    E: In the name... tell the truth, and only what the Most Blessed Virgin wishes!

    B: But those supposedly trustworthy men thought: “He is on his death-bed, he is no longer completely rational.” When a Council has been convoked, one can't just simply say: “We are stopping it” as if it were a tap which had been turned on full and only had to be turned off again. This Council no longer had a handle by which one could take control or slow it down. Things were already too far advanced for anyone to be able to do anything. The control was broken. It was already broken when John XXIII died.

    Naturally, we (demons) were involved in the coup. We were trying to gain an advantage everywhere. Naturally, we did our utmost so that this tap could no longer be turned off to stop the flood. That is why you have dissensions which are deadly, catastrophic, frightful, and everything else the Devil knows how to create.

    His trustworthy men said: “Perhaps he has arteriosclerosis, or something like that, and he no longer knows very well what he is saying.” The trustworthy men said to each other: “This must definitely not become known. Things are so far advanced, everything is so much under way and so involved, that one can no longer pull the feet out of the shoe.”

    E: In the name...!

    B: Then came Pope Paul VI, intelligent and gifted. But what could he do to slow down what his predecessor had set in motion, and to put it into reverse? Besides, Paul VI himself made some mistakes in the beginning. He did not know what John XXIII had said on his deathbed. Then he did learn about it, but too late. At all events, he did not act on it, to his own great harm. He even took some steps that even added to the disaster.

    His pontificate has now lasted for almost fourteen years, and those fourteen years have been disappointing for him. He learned very quickly what the Council had brought with it of a destructive nature, hut too late. It is a long time - many years - since he understood the faults he committed but nevertheless, it was too late. Now he follows a terrible road, a martyr's road, as the other demons have previously had to say before me, so that he can no longer do anything in the chaotic situation existing at the present time.

    People always say: It is the Holy Spirit, it must be the Holy Spirit. When, for example, the false Pope receives diplomats and all sorts of political men in whatever fashion happens to enter into his head, or as it pleases his cardinals, then the world, or at least the world which calls itself faithful to the Pope, says again: The Holy Spirit breathes! This must be the Holy Spirit! But the majority of people do not know that the Holy Spirit no longer has anything to do with it. Now we don't wish to speak any more!

    E: You don't wish to speak? But have you said everything that you have to say, Beelzebub? Was the Council directed by the Holy Spirit or not?

    B: In the beginning, the Holy Spirit was still present some of the time, but even at that stage, not always.



    WITNESSES


     

    The priests whose names are listed below, testify that, based on their personal knowledge of this case of possession, they are firmly convinced of the authenticity of the revelations made by the demons, by order of the Blessed Virgin:

    Abbot Albert d'Arx, Nieder-Buchsiten,

    Abbot Arnold Egli, Ramiswil,

    Abbot Ernest Fischer, missionary, Gossau,

    Reverend Father Pius Gervasi, o.s.b., Disentis,

    Abbot Karl Holdener, retired, Ried.

    Reverend Father Gregoire Meyer, Trimbach,

    Reverend Father Robert Rinderer, e.p.p.s., Auw,

    Abbot Louis Veillard, retired, Cerneux-Pequignot.

     

    NOTE (French edition).

    The eight priests or religious named above are all of Swiss nationality, except Father Fischer, who is a German: they all took part in the exorcisms, except Father Gregoire Meyer, who was at one time Spiritual Director for the possessed woman, and therefore knows her well.

    Two other priests, of French nationality, have also taken part in the exorcisms.

     

     
    DECLARATION


     

    Some of the shepherds of the Church who ought to be protectors of the Faith and of the Truth are that no longer. That is why the Blessed Virgin Mary forces Satan -the father of lies - to tell the truth and to teach the pure doctrine of the Church, even while he fulminates against these Warnings. It is a question of waking the shepherds up and bringing about the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Mother of the Holy Church.

    It must be understood that all these communications should be compared with the authentic doctrine of the Church and with its present situation. But it is certain, here and now, that the contents of this book show the way towards a profound renewal of the Church.

     

    Reverend Father Arnold Renz.

    Offline andysloan

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    « Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 11:30:45 AM »
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  • Cassini quoted:


    "Do not forget JP2.

    On January 3rd, 1997, the following report appeared in The Catholic Herald, an English weekly church newspaper:

    ‘The Grand Orient of Italy decided to award the Pontiff Pope John Paul II with the Order of Galileo Galilei, the highest form of recognition able to be made by Italy’s Freemasons to a non-member, in recognition for his promotion of universal Masonic values of fraternity, respect for the dignity of man, and the spirit of tolerance… Our intention is to pay homage to a man who, unlike his predecessors, showed himself to be extremely open-minded, rehabilitating Galileo, promoting a critical analysis of the Inquisition [etc.].’ "




    ....and probably had a good laugh after doing so!


       

    Luke 16:8


    "And the lord commended the unjust steward, forasmuch as he had done wisely: for the children of this world are wiser in their generation than the children of light."


       

    Daniel 3:41-42


    "And now we follow thee with all our heart, and we fear thee, and seek thy face. Put us not to confusion, but deal. with us according to thy meekness, and according to the multitude of thy mercies."

    Offline Exurge

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    John 23 Mason and Modernist
    « Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 11:44:09 AM »
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  • I have iota unum and will look up the quote.

    The ones at traditio are delusional thinking that John 23 was somehow a good and orthodox "pope" who meant well.

    He was the one responsible for the mess we are in and they dare defend him.

    Offline andysloan

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    John 23 Mason and Modernist
    « Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 12:30:19 PM »
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  • To Exurge


    I can't agree with you on that. An alternative analysis is that the conciliar popes were variously manipulated/controlled/mis-advised/mis-represented by the superforce in the Vatican and highly restricted in their sphere of action.


    They have been hammered by the ignorant masses who do not understand what is going on and various purported utterances by the Popes have been deliberately interpreted for the worse, by people who take pleasure in finding fault, poking at authority and sensationalism.


    It may be best summed up by Benedict XV1.


    During an audience with the Pope, Bishop Fellay found himself alone with the Pope for a moment.  His Excellency seized the opportunity to remind the Pope that he is the Vicar of Christ, possessed of the authority to take immediate measures to end the crisis in the Church on all fronts. The Pope replied thus: “My authority ends at that door.”

    (Castel Gondolfo August, 2005)