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Author Topic: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass  (Read 1497 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2020, 06:12:53 AM »
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  • Jaynek, so would you agree that that article is accurate up to its author's reference to the тαℓмυd? Would it be correct to affirm that our Lord's actions, during His last supper when He taught us to repeat them in memory of Him, are rooted in the Jєωιѕн passover? Would that description be accurate?
    I, personally, would not use the expression "rooted in" to describe the relationship.  I think it has the wrong connotations, since it comes from the imagery of a plant growing naturally from its roots.  The Mass did not come about by a natural process.  The institution of the Sacrament of the Eucharist was a supernatural intervention into human history by God.  Our Lord fulfilled the truth prefigured by the Jєωιѕн Passover and this is reflected in the Mass.

    Of course, there is a connection between Easter and Passover.  In most languages, they are even the same word.  In your own Italian, for example, both are "Pasqua" and the Jєωιѕн celebration distinguished as "Pasqua Ebraica".  During His time on earth, Our Lord lived as a Jєω of that time. He worshipped at a ѕуηαgσgυє, kept the Sabbath, and celebrated the Passover (and did so at the Last Supper). This is an aspect of the mystery of the Incarnation.  

    However, I would be very cautious about what any post-conciliar author has to say about this subject.  There are too many wrong ideas concerning Jєωs and Judaism at this time.  Even in the absence of glaring errors, I would expect subtle mistaken assumptions or implications.  In this thread, several members have recommended a pre-conciliar work on this subject.  If it is something you have an interest in, that seems like a good resource.


    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #31 on: February 15, 2020, 02:45:56 PM »
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  • However, I would be very cautious about what any post-conciliar author has to say about this subject.  There are too many wrong ideas concerning Jєωs and Judaism at this time.  Even in the absence of glaring errors, I would expect subtle mistaken assumptions or implications.  In this thread, several members have recommended a pre-conciliar work on this subject.  If it is something you have an interest in, that seems like a good resource.
    Thank you. I have many books in my reading list and I added this one.

    I appreciate your sound and justified concern over post-conciliar authors and texts. While I am well aware of the modern trend, both subtle and patent, to water down the difference between the two religions in the ill disguised attempt to unify all religions, I am also cautious to not excede in caution and avoid or slight historical and theological truths because I do not think it in our Faith's best interest to be weary, embarrassed, resentful or any other emotion, concerning our past and our origins...

    Again, thank you for your help. God bless your family and you.
    Tommaso
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #32 on: February 15, 2020, 10:53:29 PM »
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  • Hello rum, nice to exchange posts with you for the first time.

    Kindly, may I ask you a personal favour? Would you refrain from posting what may lead this thread astray? I have recently converted and I am studying the Catholic religion. This platform offers me the opportunity to obtain valuable replies to doubts and questions but, if these replies become buried among irrelevant posts, the thread looses part of its usefulness.

    We all suffer because Jєωs killed our Lord, we all agree that it is false religion and we all experienced use of the h0Ɩ0cαųst for reasons other than legitimate.

    But it is not helpful to attack those who converted from judaism, only because they have not managed to convert their families, as much as it would not be helpful to attack me, who just converted from reformists religion, only because I have not managed to convert my family.

    I even hold that, in our generation, reformists have done more harm to the Church than Jєωs.

    More to the point, what are your opinions on the roots of our Catholic Mass? Are they rooted in pre-Pentecost judaism?
    We suffer because of sin, in particular our sin.
    When Jesus was at his agony inn the garden, he saw a Traditional Catholic watching pornography, and he wept tears of blood
    Later when he saw someone else committing an impure act, he allowed himself to be scourged.
    Then, he saw someone who is a traditional Catholic make an unworthy reception of holy communion, and his head was crowned with thorns.
    Don't be like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden after they ate the fruit. Adam pointed the finger at Eve. Eve pointed the finger at the snake.
    If the Jєωιѕн leadership had not given him up to the Romans he would have gone to them himself. His reason for coming was to save us from our sins. He did this for us by dying for us on the cross. 

    Offline ascanio1

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #33 on: February 16, 2020, 11:47:01 AM »
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  • We suffer because of sin, in particular our sin.
    When Jesus was at his agony inn the garden, he saw a Traditional Catholic watching pornography, and he wept tears of blood
    Later when he saw someone else committing an impure act, he allowed himself to be scourged.
    Then, he saw someone who is a traditional Catholic make an unworthy reception of holy communion, and his head was crowned with thorns.
    Don't be like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden after they ate the fruit. Adam pointed the finger at Eve. Eve pointed the finger at the snake.
    If the Jєωιѕн leadership had not given him up to the Romans he would have gone to them himself. His reason for coming was to save us from our sins. He did this for us by dying for us on the cross.
    ????

    I do not understand your comment to my post to rum...

    ????
    Tommaso
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #34 on: February 16, 2020, 02:57:24 PM »
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  • We suffer because of sin, in particular our sin.
    When Jesus was at his agony inn the garden, he saw a Traditional Catholic watching pornography, and he wept tears of blood
    Later when he saw someone else committing an impure act, he allowed himself to be scourged.
    Then, he saw someone who is a traditional Catholic make an unworthy reception of holy communion, and his head was crowned with thorns.
    Don't be like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden after they ate the fruit. Adam pointed the finger at Eve. Eve pointed the finger at the snake.
    If the Jєωιѕн leadership had not given him up to the Romans he would have gone to them himself. His reason for coming was to save us from our sins. He did this for us by dying for us on the cross.
    Not forgetting your own lies and distortions. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #35 on: February 16, 2020, 04:37:28 PM »
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  • ????

    I do not understand your comment to my post to rum...

    ????
    Your post contained the phrase "We all suffer because Jєωs killed our Lord."  Poche apparently is objecting to that.  He is not taking a traditional Catholic position, since he seems to deny that the Jєωs bear any responsibility whatsoever.

    While it is true that Christians are also responsible for the Crucifixion because of our sins, traditionally Catholics did not see that as a reason to ignore the role played by Jєωs.  Here is an passage from the Catechism of the Council of Trent showing the relationship:

    Besides, to increase the dignity of this mystery, Christ not only suffered for sinners, but even for those who were the very authors and ministers of all the torments He endured. Of this the Apostle reminds us in these words addressed to the Hebrews: Think diligently upon him that endured such opposition from sinners against himself; that you be not wearied, fainting in your minds. In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross, most certainly those who wallow in sin and iniquity crucify to themselves again the Son of God, as far as in them lies, and make a mockery of Him. This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jєωs, since according to the testimony of the same Apostle: If they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know Him, yet denying Him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on him.
    http://www.saintsbooks.net/books/The%20Roman%20Catechism.pdf  (p.56) 

    Offline BTNYC

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #36 on: February 16, 2020, 05:17:50 PM »
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  • Wow. All I can say is this: how accidentally beneficial is Poche to this forum! He posted the above quote, and it indirectly brought about a great lesson for countless readers.

    What if I had banned poche months ago, as requested? I'm glad I didn't now.

    I wasn't aware of this exact quote by St. Pius X, but now I am.

    Countless readers for the next 10, 20 years will read this thread now, and none of them will be "convinced" by Poche's distortion. If they walk away with the Conciliar conception of the Jєωs ("their Covenant is still valid") it's because they were brainwashed to begin with. In which case, no harm done.

    Whenever something like this is exposed, when the following sentence REVERSES the meaning, 100% of those of good will are convinced by the truth. This is valuable to the service of truth.

    I wish there were some way to teach people things like this WITHOUT a poche, but I don't believe it's possible.

    Just like it would be great to have a strong immune system without having to suffer attacks from bacteria and viruses. But that also isn't possible.

    As long as the bacteria and viruses are weak enough so as not to do any permanent damage, you're good.

    I know a man who came, by God's grace, to Catholic Tradition after a lifetime of godlessness and hedonism. He was a cinephile, and the root of his interest in reading the Gospels and learning more about Our Lord was his love of Martin Scorsese's execrable and blasphemous film adaptation of Nikos Kazantzakis' execrable and blasphemous novel, The Last Temptation of Christ

    Applying the logic of the post above would lead this man to declare:
    "What if the blasphemous, heretical works of Kazantzakis and Scorsese were banned decades ago, as requested (by numerous pious souls)? I'm glad they weren't now!

    "I wish there were some way to reach godless cinephiles like I once was WITHOUT a Last Temptation of Christ, but I don't believe it's possible."

    To his credit, the man to whom I refer has never uttered anything like the above.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Jєωιѕн roots of the Mass
    « Reply #37 on: February 16, 2020, 05:33:53 PM »
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  • I know a man who came, by God's grace, to Catholic Tradition after a lifetime of godlessness and hedonism. He was a cinephile, and the root of his interest in reading the Gospels and learning more about Our Lord was his love of Martin Scorsese's execrable and blasphemous film adaptation of Nikos Kazantzakis' execrable and blasphemous novel, The Last Temptation of Christ.

    Applying the logic of the post above would lead this man to declare:
    "What if the blasphemous, heretical works of Kazantzakis and Scorsese were banned decades ago, as requested (by numerous pious souls)? I'm glad they weren't now!

    "I wish there were some way to reach godless cinephiles like I once was WITHOUT a Last Temptation of Christ, but I don't believe it's possible."

    To his credit, the man to whom I refer has never uttered anything like the above.
    Thank you, BTNYC. 
    When I saw that quote by Matthew in its original position, I was absolutely flabbergasted and speechless. So thank you for your wise words. God bless you.
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.