Author Topic: Jamie I have a little quote for you to consider (Read 1874 times)

St Jude Thaddeus · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:04:49 AM »

Quote from: Raoul76

I always thought that no one would be with God until after the Last Judgment also... Sheesh. I guess I was a heretic. The reason this is heretical according to Wikipedia, which makes sense, is that the saints can't intercede with God on our behalf if they are waiting for the Resurrection.

So what happens, are their souls with God while they await their physical bodies? How do they get into heaven without being judged? I thought the judgment was on the last day.

Or has the Final Judgment sort of always-already happened, the way that the Word always-already happened, and before time was, the Word was?

Particular Judgement and Final Judgement are two different things:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm on Particular Judgement

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm on Final or Last Judgement

Jamie · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2010, 01:59:27 AM »

Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus

Quote from: Raoul76

I always thought that no one would be with God until after the Last Judgment also... Sheesh. I guess I was a heretic. The reason this is heretical according to Wikipedia, which makes sense, is that the saints can't intercede with God on our behalf if they are waiting for the Resurrection.

So what happens, are their souls with God while they await their physical bodies? How do they get into heaven without being judged? I thought the judgment was on the last day.

Or has the Final Judgment sort of always-already happened, the way that the Word always-already happened, and before time was, the Word was?

Particular Judgement and Final Judgement are two different things:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm on Particular Judgement

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm on Final or Last Judgement

That page on the final judgement has a paragraph which should frighten every person:

"The judgment will embrace all works, good or bad, forgiven as well as unforgiven sins, every idle word (Matthew 12:36), every secret thought (1 Corinthians 4:5). With the exception of Peter Lombard, theologians teach that even the secret sins of the just will be made manifest, in order that judgment may be made complete and that the justice and mercy of God may be glorified. This will not pain or embarrass the saints, but add to their glory, just as the repentance of St. Peter and St. Mary Magdalen is to these saints a source of joy and honour."

Every sin - public and secret, thoughts and actions, will be made known to ALL the souls at the final judgement. Terrifying!

St Jude Thaddeus · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2010, 02:06:38 AM »

Quote from: Jamie

Every sin - public and secret, thoughts and actions, will be made known to ALL the souls at the final judgement. Terrifying!

It is frightening! I can't erase my past sins; they will all have to come out in the open, there's nothing I can do. That's why we have to focus on good works and penance. We still have time to perform those.

Jamie · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2010, 02:10:10 AM »

Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus

Quote from: Jamie

Every sin - public and secret, thoughts and actions, will be made known to ALL the souls at the final judgement. Terrifying!

It is frightening! I can't erase my past sins; they will all have to come out in the open, there's nothing I can do. That's why we have to focus on good works and penance. We still have time to perform those.

Indeed - this would be a wise thing to remember every time we are about to act or open our mouths.

CM · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2010, 07:46:22 PM »

Quote from: Jamie

Are you saying that the angels and saints don't see the beatific vision until the final judgement? That was the heresy of Pope John XXII wasn't it?

If he was a heretic, he could not have been pope.

It wasn't heresy until the opposite was proposed by the Church as a dogma. Pope Benedict XII (the successor of John XXII) defined the dogma in Benedictus Deus, after Pope John's death.

And no, of course I don't deny the dogma.

You might argue, then, that since the saints see God as He is, that must mean that since He is eternal, they must themselves also be in eternity.

On the contrary, astronomers may see light as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago without going back in time.

I answer that God may show Himself as He is to His creatures by virtue of His omnipotence without the need for them to enter into eternity.

[Raoul76 you're right: that is fun!]

And now for an extension of my argument, borrowing from a quote from the good Doctor himself:

Quote

On the contrary, That which is unknown to the angels will be much more unknown to men: because those things to which men attain by natural reason are much more clearly and certainly known to the angels by their natural knowledge. Moreover revelations are not made to men save by means of the angels as Dionysius asserts (Coel. Hier. iv). Now the angels have no exact knowledge of that time, as appears from Matthew 24:36: "Of that day and hour no one knoweth, no not the angels of heaven." Therefore that time is hidden from men.

If the angels (and saints) are in eternity, how then do they not know the TIME of a certain event, which for them has past, is passing and will pass?

It doesn't make any sense.

Finally, I already asserted in the original thread wherein we had this discussion that heaven must be a physical place otherwise the bodies of the just would have no place to go, not to mention Christ and His mother, whom you have brought up.

Do you feel your position requires amendment yet?

Jamie · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2010, 11:56:03 PM »

Quote from: CM

Quote from: Jamie
Are you saying that the angels and saints don't see the beatific vision until the final judgement? That was the heresy of Pope John XXII wasn't it?

If he was a heretic, he could not have been pope.

It wasn't heresy until the opposite was proposed by the Church as a dogma. Pope Benedict XII (the successor of John XXII) defined the dogma in Benedictus Deus, after Pope John's death.

And no, of course I don't deny the dogma.

You might argue, then, that since the saints see God as He is, that must mean that since He is eternal, they must themselves also be in eternity.

On the contrary, astronomers may see light as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago without going back in time.

I answer that God may show Himself as He is to His creatures by virtue of His omnipotence without the need for them to enter into eternity.

[Raoul76 you're right: that is fun!]

And now for an extension of my argument, borrowing from a quote from the good Doctor himself:

Quote
On the contrary, That which is unknown to the angels will be much more unknown to men: because those things to which men attain by natural reason are much more clearly and certainly known to the angels by their natural knowledge. Moreover revelations are not made to men save by means of the angels as Dionysius asserts (Coel. Hier. iv). Now the angels have no exact knowledge of that time, as appears from Matthew 24:36: "Of that day and hour no one knoweth, no not the angels of heaven." Therefore that time is hidden from men.

If the angels (and saints) are in eternity, how then do they not know the TIME of a certain event, which for them has past, is passing and will pass?

It doesn't make any sense.

Finally, I already asserted in the original thread wherein we had this discussion that heaven must be a physical place otherwise the bodies of the just would have no place to go, not to mention Christ and His mother, whom you have brought up.

Do you feel your position requires amendment yet?

I think you have missed my point entirely - I said that angels cannot ever comprehend eternity (unless God directly infuses that comprehension which we cannot know through reason). Therefore, the original quote you gave was perfectly fine and accords with that. The angels can certainly apprehend eternity - but they can't comprehend it.

As for your attempt to do an Aquinas argument, you fail at the first post. Breaking your sentence down into a syllogism shows that it is entirely lacking in logical form:

The saints are things which see God as he is
But God is eternal
Therefore, the Saints are things which are in eternity

This is an invalid syllogism for reasons which are quite obvious - for a starter you have more than three terms which makes it impossible to form a valid syllogism.

CM · « **Reply #21 on:** February 18, 2010, 10:48:01 AM »

Oh okay. Thanks for correcting me.