Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: graceseeker on December 05, 2017, 11:12:46 AM
-
This is what Jesus said but then Jesus said it was hard for anyone to get to Heaven (Mt 7:21, Lk 13:24, etc)
I think it is hard for a rich man bc he depends on his wealth and is comfortable therein.. and so he does not see his need for God, also prone to think that bc he is rich and others are not, he is special in God's eyes, a HUGE lie from the Father of all Lies
-
nobody cares
about the rich
(apparently)
hey, I can relate
most of the well off people I have known or "known" have been... uh... arrogant, for one.. and not sympathetic toward the non-wealthy
-
You know what is worse than a rich man who is arrogant? A poor man who is arrogant.
-
You know what is worse than a rich man who is arrogant?
A poor man who is obsessed with riches.
-
You know what is worse than a rich man who is arrogant? A poor man who is arrogant.
Agreed!
-
I am pretty sure that the "rich man" of this biblical passage refers to a man who puts all his confidence in his material goods, instead of God. He therefore, forsakes his Faith and duty to God, in having an immoderate pursuit of earthly treasures.
It is this abandonment of God what the scripture condemns. Not the money itself. There is nothing wrong with material richness in itself. It is the unrestrained chasing of it at the expense of the Faith (even so far as committing sin for it), which is condemned. There are many saints who were rich and royal, so we know for a fact that the rich can make it to Heaven, also.
-
Matthew 7:21:
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
.
Luke 13:24
Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.
.
Actually neither of these verses which you have referenced says anything about riches, but rather to doing the Will of God.
-
I used to work for a rich man, he wasn't very rich when I first met him, he had maybe a million give or take a few hundred thousand. By the time I left 6 years later, his business grew and he was worth +20 million. I garnered a very, very clear understanding of the evil Our Lord speaks of about the love of money from knowing him and why Our Lord taught that a rich man shall hardly enter the kingdom of heaven, and that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, and the story of Lazarus and the rich man.
I think the love of money is the real or initial culprit. Apparently, very few can strive for heaven once they love money, that's certainly the way it worked for the guy I knew.
-
I am pretty sure that the "rich man" of this biblical passage refers to a man who puts all his confidence in his material goods, instead of God. He therefore, forsakes his Faith and duty to God, in having an immoderate pursuit of earthly treasures.
It is this abandonment of God what the scripture condemns. Not the money itself. There is nothing wrong with material richness in itself. It is the unrestrained chasing of it at the expense of the Faith (even so far as committing sin for it), which is condemned. There are many saints who were rich and royal, so we know for a fact that the rich can make it to Heaven, also.
Well, in the story, the man kept the commandments and did good ... but Our Lord pointed out the one thing lacking. Yes, the rich CAN make it to heaven ... but for the vast majority riches put their salvation at risk or, at the very least, hinder them from a greater degree of perfection.
-
A poor man who is obsessed with riches.
Well, that's why Our Lord used the term poor in spirit. You have to have the spirit of poverty, which most cannot do if they live with actual riches ... whereas as some of those without riches still lust after them and therefore are not poor in spirit. Poverty in Spirit revers to a lack of ATTACHMENT to riches. Some rich people can be unattached to them, whereas some poor people can be attached to them.
-
All great answers.
Also worthy of contemplation: rich = pride
From the Magnificat: He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich he hath sent empty away. Rich = the vanity of presumption/pride
St Augustine:
3. What, then, does He say? Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm). We read in Scripture concerning the striving after temporal things, All is vanity and presumption of spirit; but presumption of spirit means audacity and pride (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm): usually also the proud (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm) are said to have great spirits; and rightly, inasmuch as the wind also is called spirit. And hence it is written, Fire, hail, snow, ice, spirit of tempest. But, indeed, who does not know (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) that the proud (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm) are spoken of as puffed up, as if swelled out with wind? And hence also that expression of the apostle, Knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies. And the poor in spirit are rightly understood here, as meaning the humble (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm) and God-fearing, i.e. those who have not the spirit which puffs up. Nor ought blessedness to begin at any other point whatever, if indeed it is to attain unto the highest wisdom; but the fear (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06021a.htm) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; for, on the other hand also, pride (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm) is entitled the beginning of all sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Let the proud (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm), therefore, seek after and love (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) the kingdoms of the earth; but blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm).
Excellent! :applause:
The guy I knew was DEFINITELY sent away empty. Along with his four marriages, he had what he really wanted, a lot of money - plenty of money - and he was miserable!
-
Well, in the story, the man kept the commandments and did good ... but Our Lord pointed out the one thing lacking. Yes, the rich CAN make it to heaven ... but for the vast majority riches put their salvation at risk or, at the very least, hinder them from a greater degree of perfection.
The commentary from that verse (Mark 10, 22) that appears in my Douay Rheims version dated 1582 reads: "This is counsel of perfection (NOT a precept) which the Religious professing and keeping voluntary poverty, do follow".
I think this counsel, which is not precept, also depends greatly on a person's particular state of life. For example, a single religious will probably be able to follow this council of perfection easier than let's say, a married man with a wife and many children which he needs to provide for.
-
You know what is worse than a rich man who is arrogant? A poor man who is arrogant.
I rest my case vis a vis how the poor are looked down upon and hated and discriminated against
their sins, according to your post, are worse than the ones of the rich
I don't think I will bother responding to your posts anymore
-
It is this abandonment of God what the scripture condemns. Not the money itself.
then why does God (Jesus) mention the man being rich
the man who is poor?
this is what is wrong w/ Christianity in this country and eleswhere: people pick and choose what parts they will believe in and which parts they won't
cafeteria christianity
-
Well, that's why Our Lord used the term poor in spirit. You have to have the spirit of poverty, which most cannot do if they live with actual riches ... whereas as some of those without riches still lust after them and therefore are not poor in spirit. Poverty in Spirit revers to a lack of ATTACHMENT to riches. Some rich people can be unattached to them, whereas some poor people can be attached to them.
I have had that same thought
and also
anyonw is poor who does not have a good relationship w God, and unfortunately that statement applies to virtually everyone, which is why most people end up in Hell
according to the canonized saints
-
then why does God (Jesus) mention the man being rich
the man who is poor?
this is what is wrong w/ Christianity in this country and eleswhere: people pick and choose what parts they will believe in and which parts they won't
cafeteria Christianity
One of the fundamental things that are wrong with Christianity in this country and elsewhere (and we can thank Protestantism for that) is that anyone who is literate think they can read a quote of the Bible and interpret it according to the own whim or understand it in a literal manner. However, the practice for Catholics has been different (at least before Vatican II). It used to be that we had a Magisterium to interpret Holy Scripture for us and teach us laity everything we ought to know.
I believe the annotation I cited is the proper understanding of that biblical verse. The Church does not condemn rich people nor material treasure per se. There are many Protestants who have an issue with the pomposity of the Catholic Church. The physical splendor or our parishes, ceremonies, vestments, etc. There are some who think we would be better off demolishing our magnificent buildings and having our priests dressing in rags so we can use that money to give it to the poor (I would think Bergolio and his communist "church of the poor" is among those).
This glorification of the poor is of communist nature; and not Catholic. There are some who are born poor, some rich, and many in between and there is nothing wrong with the differences. The Church has never taught that only the poor attains Heaven. Traditionally, only the religious are required to have vows of poverty, although we do find saints who have renounced all their wealth and embrace poverty and this is very meritorious as well; especially because it takes heroic effort to renounce voluntarily to the richness. Different from the poor, who convince themselves that they are better off being poor as if poverty would be an ideal in itself, just because they are aware they will probably be poor for the rest of their lives, no matter what they do, so they resign themselves, but given the option, the would NOT choose poverty. There is not merit on that! .
Also, I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a poor man trying to improve his quality of life for himself and his family, through hard and honest work, provided he does not commit sin in doing so.
-
One of the fundamental things that are wrong with Christianity in this country and elsewhere (and we can thank Protestantism for that) is that anyone who is literate think they can read a quote of the Bible and interpret it according to the own whim or understand it in a literal manner. However, the practice for Catholics has been different (at least before Vatican II). It used to be that we had a Magisterium to interpret Holy Scripture for us and teach us laity everything we ought to know.
I believe the annotation I cited is the proper understanding of that biblical verse. The Church does not condemn rich people nor material treasure per se. There are many Protestants who have an issue with the pomposity of the Catholic Church. The physical splendor or our parishes, ceremonies, vestments, etc. There are some who think we would be better off demolishing our magnificent buildings and having our priests dressing in rags so we can use that money to give it to the poor (I would think Bergolio and his communist "church of the poor" is among those).
This glorification of the poor is of communist nature; and not Catholic. There are some who are born poor, some rich, and many in between and there is nothing wrong with the differences. The Church has never taught that only the poor attains Heaven. Traditionally, only the religious are required to have vows of poverty, although we do find saints who have renounced all their wealth and embrace poverty and this is very meritorious as well; especially because it takes heroic effort to renounce voluntarily to the richness. Different from the poor, who convince themselves that they are better off being poor as if poverty would be an ideal in itself, just because they are aware they will probably be poor for the rest of their lives, no matter what they do, so they resign themselves, but given the option, the would NOT choose poverty. There is not merit on that! .
Also, I don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with a poor man trying to improve his quality of life for himself and his family, through hard and honest work, provided he does not commit sin in doing so.
I seem to detect in your words (Sorry, God if I am wrong ) a disdain for poor people.. subtle though it may be.
There are those who are poor economically bc they are poor in other ways, meaning they do not have anyone to help them, they have deep psychological problems that interfere in living a "normal" life, the kind of life others live..
I frankly think we SHOULD return to... if we ever were there... well, you know.. priests living poor. As it is, they live better than probably 40% of the population they "serve" and cannot relate to such things as: Father, I lost my job and cannot seem to find another. We may lose our house... and that kind of thing
I have seen many, many priests who seem to be in the priesthood simply to serve themselves. Read Ezekiel 34 about what God thinks of that...
:-[