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Author Topic: IsSacrament of Confession  (Read 2460 times)

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Offline Brunitix

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IsSacrament of Confession
« on: October 02, 2019, 12:27:50 PM »
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    • Is the conciliar church confession always invalid? What did the archbishop Lefevbre said about it?
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is the Sacrament of Confession valid?
    « Reply #1 on: October 03, 2019, 02:05:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: Brunitix on October 02, 2019, 12:27:50 PM
    Is the conciliar church confession always invalid? What did the archbishop Lefevbre said about it?
    This should be the least of your worries. Ask yourself this question.

    Before Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, what about the thousands of communist agents who entered Catholic seminaries and who were ordained as "priests" and "bishops" in order to take down the Roman Catholic Church? Some even became Cardinals. Did some of these communist agents also become Popes?

    This communist coup started in the 1920s and continued in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and 1960s throughout the world. This could still be in process.

    Now these priest-agents were hearing confessions invalidly and they were saying invalid masses by deliberately changing the words of consecration. They taught in high schools and in colleges, and they served as retreat masters indoctrinating millions and causing a tremendous loss of faith among the faithful. They also served in high positions in the Vatican, and contributed to the Vatican II docuмents.

    You must ask: Could Fellay of the SSPX be one of these priest-agents?

    This is why it is imperative that you meet with priests before asking them for confession. Ask them questions about the faith. We as laity must be educated in the faith so we can detect who might be a false priest or a wolf in sheep's clothing.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #2 on: October 03, 2019, 02:17:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Brunitix on October 02, 2019, 12:27:50 PM
    Is the conciliar church confession always invalid? What did the archbishop Lefevbre said about it?
    It depends on the priest, if he was ordained in the new rite of ordination or ordained by a bishop who was consecrated with the new consecration formula (some trad mass priests like the Fraternity of St. Peter were all consecrated by new formula bishops) they may not be priests. Going to confession with them would be like going to confession with any laymen, good for nothing.  I can't say for sure if they are priest or not, there are differences of opinions, but I can say that there is doubt and why go to confession where there is doubt? Just avoid them and go with priests that you know were ordained in the old rite, by old formula consecrated bishops. That is what I do. God has always provided me with those no doubt priests.
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    Offline poche

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #3 on: October 03, 2019, 04:04:47 AM »
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    • Mgr. Lefebvre recognized the validity of the Novus Ordo.  
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #4 on: October 03, 2019, 04:13:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on October 03, 2019, 04:04:47 AM
    Mgr. Lefebvre recognized the validity of the Novus Ordo.  
    The Novus Ordo is a "new rite of the Mass".  It is not the Sacrament of Penance
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is the Sacrament of Confession valid?
    « Reply #5 on: October 03, 2019, 04:18:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Regina on October 03, 2019, 02:05:40 AM
    This should be the least of your worries. Ask yourself this question.

    Before Vatican II and the Novus Ordo, what about the thousands of communist agents who entered Catholic seminaries and who were ordained as "priests" and "bishops" in order to take down the Roman Catholic Church? Some even became Cardinals. Did some of these communist agents also become Popes?

    This communist coup started in the 1920s and continued in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s and 1960s throughout the world. This could still be in process.

    Now these priest-agents were hearing confessions invalidly and they were saying invalid masses by deliberately changing the words of consecration. They taught in high schools and in colleges, and they served as retreat masters indoctrinating millions and causing a tremendous loss of faith among the faithful. They also served in high positions in the Vatican, and contributed to the Vatican II docuмents.

    You must ask: Could Fellay of the SSPX be one of these priest-agents?

    This is why it is imperative that you meet with priests before asking them for confession. Ask them questions about the faith. We as laity must be educated in the faith so we can detect who might be a false priest or a wolf in sheep's clothing.
    These priests ordained from the 1920's through to the 1950's and some of the 60's, were validly ordained and so they did not hear confession invalidly. 
    Neither do we know whether they repented from their deceit and malice.
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    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #6 on: October 03, 2019, 05:41:32 AM »
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    • From Who Shall Ascend?....

    It is not our purpose in these pages to decide whether the new ordination rite is invalid, though, as we shall see, the argument is substantial enough that we are bound to allow for this possibility. Furthermore, we must see the issue in the context of the total redefinition and reconstitution of the Church, such as was set in motion at the Council. In view of the fact that, since the Council, the priest's role has been in the process of being modified, as we said, to that of a Protestant presbyter, there is every reason to deduce that the new ordination rite sabotages the Sacrament of Holy Orders according to the explicit program and purposes of those now in power. (The reader is reminded that the very doubt which this change creates serves the malevolent purposes of the conspirators as well as does the certitude of invalidity, because from the doubt flows controversy, disagreements, factions, confusion, and disquietude among the clergy and the faithful.)

    By way of preface, we observe: The revisers had a reason for making changes, and particular reasons for each change they made. They cannot argue that their new formulas are identical to the old; that would be to admit that the changes mean nothing, and that, therefore, there was no reason to make them. To admit that they made changes for no reason whatsoever would be a sign of a most irreverent capriciousness and cynicism. Besides, such an explanation could only be regarded as a concealment. The new forms (Latin and English) must be seen to say something different from the old. Furthermore, in
    view of what the other changes in the liturgical rites have connoted, we are compelled to be suspicious. We should rather say, we have every reason to look for an effort at neuterizing this sacramental rite, because those in charge of the new rites have shown themselves untrustworthy, or, more accurately, determinedly subversive. The new form could not be an improvement on the old. How can one method or set of words ordain someone better than another? The alteration of the form can only have had the intention of either negating this purpose, or, at the very least, of creating a doubt as to its efficacy. (As if it needs to be said: They could not have added something to the form by taking words away. And what could they have wanted to add to the power of Orders? Why did they touch the form at all?)....
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #7 on: October 03, 2019, 06:04:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Brunitix on October 02, 2019, 12:27:50 PM
    Is the conciliar church confession always invalid? What did the archbishop Lefevbre said about it?
    The NO calls it the sacrament of reconciliation and it's validity is suspect, at least doubtful for at least a few reasons.
    The doubtful validity of the priest and the common practice of ad libbing the formula of absolution, there are other reasons but these two stand out imo.

    Archbishop Lefevbre fought against and rejected the NO in it's entirety. He founded traditional seminaries, trained priests in the traditional rite, celebrated only the traditional Mass, administered only the traditional sacraments, ordained/consecrated his seminarians and priests in the traditional rite, and for all this and more, he was excommunicated from the conciliar church.

    Forget looking for what he may have said about it because whatever he may have said back then, there were still a lot of NO priests who were ordained it the old rite. The safest course is to follow him in his works, in what he did and you cannot go wrong here.

    Last Tradhican nailed it when he said: "Just avoid them and go with priests that you know were ordained in the old rite, by old formula consecrated bishops. That is what I do. God has always provided me with those no doubt priests."

    Do this faithfully and let God always provide you with true priests, then you will never have to be worried about it.
       
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #8 on: October 03, 2019, 04:50:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on October 03, 2019, 04:13:08 AM
    The Novus Ordo is a "new rite of the Mass".  It is not the Sacrament of Penance
    While the Novus Ordo is the "New Order" of the Mass, traditional Catholics commonly call all of the Conciliar changes under the moniker, "Novus Ordo".

    All of the sacraments underwent changes by the Conciliar sect.  There is a new "Rite of Reconciliation" that replaced the old sacrament of penance.  The problem with this sacrament is not, however, the changes made to it but the changes made to the Rite of Orders and the Rite of Epicopal Consecration.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #9 on: October 03, 2019, 05:00:33 PM »
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    • If the priest is valid, the Novus Ordo form of Confession is undoubtedly valid ... if the priest sticks to it.

    If he says, "I absolve you in the name of the Father and (of the) Son and (of the) Holy Spirit." then the Sacrament is validly performed.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #10 on: October 03, 2019, 05:38:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 03, 2019, 05:00:33 PM
    If the priest is valid, the Novus Ordo form of Confession is undoubtedly valid ... if the priest sticks to it.

    If he says, "I absolve you in the name of the Father and (of the) Son and (of the) Holy Spirit." then the Sacrament is validly performed.
    Years ago, a young priest told me, "Go.  Your sins are forgiven."  
    .
    While the priest was probably not a valid priest, if he had been, do you think this would have been a valid absolution?
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    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: Is the Sacrament of Confession valid?
    « Reply #11 on: October 03, 2019, 06:54:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nadir on October 03, 2019, 04:18:54 AM
    These priests ordained from the 1920's through to the 1950's and some of the 60's, were validly ordained and so they did not hear confession invalidly.
    Neither do we know whether they repented from their deceit and malice.
    The Holy Sacraments are not magical.

    If a person does not have the proper disposition, for example, receiving Holy Communion with hatred in one's heart for Christ, it will be a sacrilege for him/her. In his epistles, St. Paul warns us to properly discern the Body of Christ. Those who receive Holy Communion unworthily have been stricken dead or have become seriously ill.

    If a priest purposely says the words of consecration invalidly during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and I have witnessed this pre-Vatican II,  then that is not a valid mass. In those cases, I did not receive Holy Communion but left.

    If a candidate for Holy Orders was not baptized, but produced a fake baptismal certificate. How can he be validly ordained to the Priesthood?

    If a candidate for Holy Orders was validly baptized as an infant, but renounced his faith as a young adult, to enter the priesthood in an attempt to destroy Catholicism in his hatred of Christ, how can he be validly ordained to the Priesthood? How could he be validly consecrated as a Bishop or even assume the Papacy with those diabolical intentions?

    Bella Dodd and others have said that priests who became Communists after their valid ordination would celebrate a "valid" mass in order to produce consecrated hosts to be used during Black Masses. Apparently, this is what is being done when the hierarchy at the Vatican celebrates Black Masses.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #12 on: October 03, 2019, 07:28:56 PM »
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    • If I take Maria Regina’s advice regarding the possibility of priests from the 1920s onward being imposters, the last validly 100% sure, validly baptized person in my family was my grandmother, born and baptized 1916.  There is no reasonable means of discovering if the priests who baptized my parents were priests, no way of finding if the priest who baptized me was a priest, no way of investigating the background of every single priest from whom my grandparents, parents, myself were true priests, how many Sacraments were invalid, or if anyone after my grandmother was or is truly Catholic.  

    This makes a great case for staying “home alone.”  In fact, all but one person in my extended family stays home alone.  He goes to the novus ordo when his health allows, once every few months, but getting less frequent.  One of the home alone members reads the traditional missal and tries to listen to a sermon from the Sunday following on line.  The remaining members, many, many, scattered to the winds stay home, go out, go shopping, play sports, work, do whatever they want because they were doubtfully baptized but never religious.  The vast majority weren’t baptized and belong to the most common American creed known as, “no religion.”
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Is the Sacrament of Confession valid?
    « Reply #13 on: October 03, 2019, 08:40:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Maria Regina on October 03, 2019, 06:54:52 PM
    The Holy Sacraments are not magical.

    If a person does not have the proper disposition, for example, receiving Holy Communion with hatred in one's heart for Christ, it will be a sacrilege for him/her. In his epistles, St. Paul warns us to properly discern the Body of Christ. Those who receive Holy Communion unworthily have been stricken dead or have become seriously ill.

    If a priest purposely says the words of consecration invalidly during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and I have witnessed this pre-Vatican II,  then that is not a valid mass. In those cases, I did not receive Holy Communion but left.

    If a candidate for Holy Orders was not baptized, but produced a fake baptismal certificate. How can he be validly ordained to the Priesthood?

    If a candidate for Holy Orders was validly baptized as an infant, but renounced his faith as a young adult, to enter the priesthood in an attempt to destroy Catholicism in his hatred of Christ, how can he be validly ordained to the Priesthood? How could he be validly consecrated as a Bishop or even assume the Papacy with those diabolical intentions?

    Bella Dodd and others have said that priests who became Communists after their valid ordination would celebrate a "valid" mass in order to produce consecrated hosts to be used during Black Masses. Apparently, this is what is being done when the hierarchy at the Vatican celebrates Black Masses.

    Why introduce the topic of magic?

    Your post here bears no relationship to my comment that those priests were validly ordained.

    The topic in the question of the validity or otherwise of the sacrament of Penance.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: IsSacrament of Confession
    « Reply #14 on: October 04, 2019, 04:22:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 03, 2019, 05:38:30 PM
    Years ago, a young priest told me, "Go.  Your sins are forgiven."  
    .
    While the priest was probably not a valid priest, if he had been, do you think this would have been a valid absolution?

    If that's all he said, then it's absolutely invalid.  Church has made it clear that "I absolve you from your sins" is essential form.  Some theologians don't think that the "in the name of the Father, etc." is even required.
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