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Author Topic: Is this scandalous or sinful?  (Read 1091 times)

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Offline Vladimir

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Is this scandalous or sinful?
« on: November 19, 2011, 03:33:50 PM »
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  • Is it sinful for a Catholic of Oriental descent to perform the ritual prostrations at his parent's burial?

    The tradition is that when the body is not brought to the graveyard yet, one bows lowly 2 times while offering incense since the body is still considered in the realm of the living, but when the body has been lowered into the grave, once bows on the knees, touching the forehead to the ground, 4 times since now the parent is considered to have passed into the realm of the dead.

    Obviously, a Catholic would not connect the prostrations and incensing with ancestor worship, but is it OK to do?





    Offline Telesphorus

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    Is this scandalous or sinful?
    « Reply #1 on: November 19, 2011, 04:17:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Is it sinful for a Catholic of Oriental descent to perform the ritual prostrations at his parent's burial?

    The tradition is that when the body is not brought to the graveyard yet, one bows lowly 2 times while offering incense since the body is still considered in the realm of the living, but when the body has been lowered into the grave, once bows on the knees, touching the forehead to the ground, 4 times since now the parent is considered to have passed into the realm of the dead.

    Obviously, a Catholic would not connect the prostrations and incensing with ancestor worship, but is it OK to do?



    I would say yes it's okay because you're paying respects the same way people used to pay respect to rulers in the past.  You're respecting them, not committing idolatry.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Is this scandalous or sinful?
    « Reply #2 on: November 19, 2011, 04:31:39 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Is it sinful for a Catholic of Oriental descent to perform the ritual prostrations at his parent's burial?

    The tradition is that when the body is not brought to the graveyard yet, one bows lowly 2 times while offering incense since the body is still considered in the realm of the living, but when the body has been lowered into the grave, once bows on the knees, touching the forehead to the ground, 4 times since now the parent is considered to have passed into the realm of the dead.

    Obviously, a Catholic would not connect the prostrations and incensing with ancestor worship, but is it OK to do?



    I would say this tradition contradicts Catholic doctrine: You can't bow to a dead body "while it is still in the land of the living" when the reality is that the judgment has already occurred, and the person has entered into their eternity.

       Also, it is objectively a remnant of ancestor worship, even if subjectively you covertly don't agree with that.

       Were that not the case, the martyrs could have offered incense to the Gods while inwardly rejecting them.

       The analogy is exact, and it seems to me a pretty clear case of something forbidden to Catholics.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Is this scandalous or sinful?
    « Reply #3 on: November 19, 2011, 04:45:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Is it sinful for a Catholic of Oriental descent to perform the ritual prostrations at his parent's burial?

    The tradition is that when the body is not brought to the graveyard yet, one bows lowly 2 times while offering incense since the body is still considered in the realm of the living, but when the body has been lowered into the grave, once bows on the knees, touching the forehead to the ground, 4 times since now the parent is considered to have passed into the realm of the dead.

    Obviously, a Catholic would not connect the prostrations and incensing with ancestor worship, but is it OK to do?


    I would say that this tradition can be harmonized with the teachings of the Church regarding the suffrage for the Poor Souls in Purgatory, which justice and charity all the more strictly demand when it comes to deceased parents by reason of the Fourth Commandment. If there is danger of scandal, one ought to contextualize such practices within Catholic teaching (e.g., the prostrations and incense are offered not to the bodies but unto God Who created those bodies as an act of praise and thanksgiving for any natural and supernatural good bestowed upon the persons during life, and as an act of reparation and propitiation for the sins and negligences the persons may have committed during life). Such an explanation and other tokens of Catholic devotion (carrying and saying the Rosary, saying Psalm 129 De profundis, &c.) should suffice to dissipate scandal and make it clear that your intentions are wholly supernatural and Catholic.

    In a related thread, treating upon ancestor worship in China, I made the following remarks:

    Quote from: I
    On 8 December 1939, the Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith promulgated the Instruction Plane compertum est (A. A. S., vol. xxxii. pp. 24-26), signed by the Prefect of the same Roman Congregation His Eminence Pietro Cardinal Fumasoni Biondi, after having obtained the express approval of Pope Pius XII in an audience granted on 7 December, regarding certain ceremonies and oaths in Chinese rites, circa quasdam caeremonias et juramentum super ritibus sinensibus.

    As Rev. Fr. Henry Davis explains in his work, Moral and Pastoral Theology (vol. I., treatise V., ch. viii., p. 352; London and New York: Sheed and Ward, 1958):

    Quote
    Chinese Rites

    The ceremonies in honour of Confucius are not religious. Catholics are not forbidden to be present at them. Pictures of Confucius may be placed in Catholic schools and saluted with a bow of the head. The presence of Catholic officials and students at public ceremonies which have the appearance of being superstitious is tolerated, provided their presence is passive and their marks of respect can be regarded as merely secular, otherwise they should make their intention known in order to preclude a wrong interpretation. Bowing the head and showing other marks of civil respect before images or a plaque of the dead is permissible.


    The same Instruction declared superfluous the oath mandated by the Apostolic Constitution of Pope Benedict XIV Ex quo singulari (11 July 1742) whereby Missionaries in the Chinese Empire and its adjacent kingdoms and provinces pledged themselves to forbid the faithful to partake in these rites.

    As the Instruction says, the Chinese government had expressly declared that such ceremonies are not inherently religious, nor was there a religious intention when it formulated and promulgated the edicts that prescribed these civic ceremonies. The ceremonies were meant as expressions of civic solidarity and honor of cultural heritage, commemorating the most celebrated ethicist of Chinese history (caeremonias, quae in honorem Confucii a publicis Auctoritatibus sive peraguntur sive iubentur, non fieri animo tribuendi religiosum cultum, sed hunc solum in finem ut foveatur et expromatur in virum clarissimum dignus honor et in traditiones patrum debitus cultus).

    If there is danger of scandal when officials and students are obliged to partake in ostensibly superstitious ceremonies, the correct intention according to the profession and practice of the holy faith is to be expressly stated by the individuals in question (Si quando timeatur scandalum, declaretur recta catholicorum intentio).

    It should be considered that Confucius was an ethicist who lived some four centuries or so before the preaching of the Sacred Gospel unto the heathen nations. As far as I know, his ethical teachings in themselves were not contrary to natural law.

    I do not know how apt the analogy is, but there is a difference between admiring Plato and admiring Plotinus. The former lived before the preaching of the Gospel unto Greece and influenced the early Fathers in profound ways. The latter was a Neo-Platonic philosopher who lived after the preaching of the Gospel and was taught by an apostatized Christian. Although some passages of his Enneads are exceedingly beautiful, he cannot command the indulgence as Plato does for his purer works because Plotinus rejected the Gospel outright.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Vladimir

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    Is this scandalous or sinful?
    « Reply #4 on: November 19, 2011, 10:26:51 PM »
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  • Seraphim,

    Obviously, a Catholic would not believe in the thing about being in the "land of the living". In fact, I translated that a bit inaccurately. Before the body is buried, it is still referred to as a living person, but not after the burial. Whether or not this is a pagan belief, or just a custom that evolved from the intense grief that children feel at their parent's passing and a manifestation of an element of denial, I do not know.

    I also don't think that bowing, even if it is complete prostration, constitutes idolatry, like offering incense to an idol does. In the Old Testament there are many examples of prostrating to humans and to angels.

    Undoubtedly, if the family in question were traditional Catholic, there would be rosaries and the De Profundis, etc as well. I recently posted a prayer in Classical Chinese that Catholic subsituted for the part of the funeral ceremony in which an eulogy praising the deceased was proscribed by tradition.

    I suppose then, there would also be no scandal in wearing traditional funeral garments? I'm not sure if they are Buddhist in origin or not. They consist of a white headband and a white hooded robe, etc.

    Essentially, what I am asking is that how far can a faithful Catholic go in trying to be faithful to his culture and the Church at the same time. Obviously, parts of the funeral rites that Alexandre de Rhodes described as superstitious and contrary to the faith would have to be abandoned, by I'm just wondering if the external obsequies can still be performed.





    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Is this scandalous or sinful?
    « Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 06:00:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Seraphim,

    Obviously, a Catholic would not believe in the thing about being in the "land of the living". In fact, I translated that a bit inaccurately. Before the body is buried, it is still referred to as a living person, but not after the burial. Whether or not this is a pagan belief, or just a custom that evolved from the intense grief that children feel at their parent's passing and a manifestation of an element of denial, I do not know.

    I also don't think that bowing, even if it is complete prostration, constitutes idolatry, like offering incense to an idol does. In the Old Testament there are many examples of prostrating to humans and to angels.

    Undoubtedly, if the family in question were traditional Catholic, there would be rosaries and the De Profundis, etc as well. I recently posted a prayer in Classical Chinese that Catholic subsituted for the part of the funeral ceremony in which an eulogy praising the deceased was proscribed by tradition.

    I suppose then, there would also be no scandal in wearing traditional funeral garments? I'm not sure if they are Buddhist in origin or not. They consist of a white headband and a white hooded robe, etc.

    Essentially, what I am asking is that how far can a faithful Catholic go in trying to be faithful to his culture and the Church at the same time. Obviously, parts of the funeral rites that Alexandre de Rhodes described as superstitious and contrary to the faith would have to be abandoned, by I'm just wondering if the external obsequies can still be performed.



    Vladimir-

       Probably the safest thing to do would be to ask a traditional Catholic priest.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."