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Author Topic: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?  (Read 746 times)

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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
« on: October 22, 2017, 03:16:47 PM »
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    • A lot of Catholics defend the Catholic use of images against protestants by pointing to the fact that God had images made for the temple in the Old Testament. But didn't God also have people killed? Does that mean we can kill?  No, since those were exceptions. Likewise, can't God having those images made also be exceptions to the no-images rule? 
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #1 on: October 22, 2017, 03:20:03 PM »
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    • Funny.  I've never heard this argument.  Can you explain it more fully so that I can consider its validity?
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #2 on: October 22, 2017, 03:25:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on October 22, 2017, 03:16:47 PM
    A lot of Catholics defend the Catholic use of images against protestants by pointing to the fact that God had images made for the temple in the Old Testament. But didn't God also have people killed? Does that mean we can kill?  No, since those were exceptions. Likewise, can't God having those images made also be exceptions to the no-images rule?
    I think that if you tightened up your group a bit, and formulated the actual argument as such it would help a great deal; a well-formed question often "answers itself".

    That said, I think that your words "... God had..." are a lynch pin here.
    Additionally, we kill all the time; we can't avoid it. 
    Specifics would also help; to what, exactly, are you referring?
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    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #3 on: October 22, 2017, 03:32:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on October 22, 2017, 03:20:03 PM
    Funny.  I've never heard this argument.  Can you explain it more fully so that I can consider its validity?
    Many times I've seen on Catholic websites that if God forbids the making of images,  as protestants say, than how can He 'turn around' and have images made on the Ark of covenant? These websites say that God won't contradict himself, therefore making images is fine. But God also forbade killing, and yet had whole populations killed. So clearly He will 'contradict' Himself (make exceptions to the rules). He is the giver of these rules.
     But if God allowed killing,  than does that mean we can kill? Clearly not. But I feel like this follows the same logic as the 'images' argument, so I can possibly say that killing is fine. 
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 03:40:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on October 22, 2017, 03:32:59 PM
    Many times I've seen on Catholic websites that if God forbids the making of images,  as protestants say, than how can He 'turn around' and have images made on the Ark of covenant? These websites say that God won't contradict himself, therefore making images is fine. But God also forbade killing, and yet had whole populations killed. So clearly He will 'contradict' Himself (make exceptions to the rules). He is the giver of these rules.
     But if God allowed killing,  than does that mean we can kill? Clearly not. But I feel like this follows the same logic as the 'images' argument, so I can possibly say that killing is fine.
    How can they have websites sans images; websites for the blind?

    They can't even type without "images". 
    Since when does God forbid killing? Seems a bit "unfair" to command true impossibilities. 

    This "contradictory god" isn't God, which only follows the more into heresy and/or infidelity one is mired.

    This "god" is more descriptive of Allah, and "The gods of the pagans are devils".

    I'd be willing to bet these heretics would be much less "rigorous" if you brought up, for example, what scripture says about marriage. 
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    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #5 on: October 22, 2017, 03:42:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on October 22, 2017, 03:32:59 PM
    Many times I've seen on Catholic websites that if God forbids the making of images,  as protestants say, than how can He 'turn around' and have images made on the Ark of covenant? These websites say that God won't contradict himself, therefore making images is fine. But God also forbade killing, and yet had whole populations killed. So clearly He will 'contradict' Himself (make exceptions to the rules). He is the giver of these rules.
     But if God allowed killing,  than does that mean we can kill? Clearly not. But I feel like this follows the same logic as the 'images' argument, so I can possibly say that killing is fine.
    This is one of the reasons the Bible can't be the teacher of mankind; the Bible doesn't explain itself. Our Lord established a Church which is the teacher of mankind.
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #6 on: October 22, 2017, 03:44:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Motorede on October 22, 2017, 03:42:34 PM
    This is one of the reasons the Bible can't be the teacher of mankind; 
    Sure it can, just within the bounds set by the Church; is it a rule of faith, or is it not?
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #7 on: October 22, 2017, 04:33:26 PM »
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    • If Catholic truly worshipped images yes, we would be guilty.  However, haven't you ever seen Protestants peddle their own images, I have seen them offer crosses and angel pins for a donation or even price on T.V.  They also have pictures in their home some are holy images and some are of their family.  In their churches, I have seen a cross without Jesus on it.  
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    Offline poche

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    Re: Is This Common Catholic Argument Valid?
    « Reply #8 on: October 22, 2017, 11:33:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mercyandjustice on October 22, 2017, 03:32:59 PM
    Many times I've seen on Catholic websites that if God forbids the making of images,  as protestants say, than how can He 'turn around' and have images made on the Ark of covenant? These websites say that God won't contradict himself, therefore making images is fine. But God also forbade killing, and yet had whole populations killed. So clearly He will 'contradict' Himself (make exceptions to the rules). He is the giver of these rules.
     But if God allowed killing,  than does that mean we can kill? Clearly not. But I feel like this follows the same logic as the 'images' argument, so I can possibly say that killing is fine.
    God forbids idolatry. That is the making of images and worshiping them. The Catholic Church has also always condemned idolatry. However the Church has made the distinction between the making of images for idolatrous worship and the use of images for veneration.
    As far as Giod "killing" people, that is understood that because of our original sin and our actual sins. When we offend God, there are consequences. Death is a result of our direct disobedience to God which started with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
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