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Author Topic: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?  (Read 8519 times)

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Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2018, 04:51:31 PM »
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  • its a mighty big leap to insist the NO is not a true Mass when Popes teach otherwise.  No, we don't have to believe everything a Pope says.  But we do have to believe what Popes teach and what the Church practices.
    Exactly.

    The new mass is valid but illicit. That's what +ABL taught, and it makes sense to me....There is not much of an opportunity to obey good rules that the conciliar Popes have instituted, and I can't really think of what those might be.... ...Just because we distance ourselves from a mentality ill father, this doesn't mean that he isn't still our father.
    1. So you follow Archbishop Lefebvre, who wrote "An Open Letter to Confused Catholics," and yet was (albeit a very good man) a very confused Catholic himself. He is not an oracle, a saint, and he never possessed more authority than the popes. However, I heard many SSPX people refer to him as a "Saint." Now the SSPX Resistance claims to be carrying on in the true tradition and spirit of Archbishop Lefebvre...both organizations therefore appear to be rising the Archbishop up to a "cult figure."

    2. I have yet to find one SSPX (or R&R) adherent who can state one. I expected such a response.

    3. You consider not only this pope but all post-conciliar popes who celebrate the New Mass as "mentally ill fathers"....very interesting. So, the pope is mentally ill. Are all of the cardinals in Rome also mentally ill? Is the entire Novus Ordo church hierarchy mentally ill?


    I recommend instead of starting tired politicized threads laces with sufficient insult to raise suspicion turning R&R members off to discussion, you instead read all of the past discussions generally pertaining to your questions/interests.  Also, you will avoid attracting the many crypto vacantists and feeneyites who are members, who can quickly spot an amateur and an easy meal.   Militant ecclesia dei types(you) may be on the shortest fuse with matthew(the moderator) here, so I recommend you be polite if you have any questions, and occupy yourself with the forum archives.  
    PG, I am not being impolite to anyone. My comments have not been "laced with insults" and, if you took offense to anything that I have said, then I sincerely apologize.

    I'm not "turning R&R members off to discussion" because I neither wish to censor nor to insult them. I simply wish to discuss this topic on respectful terms.

    I admit that I am a newbie or amateur, having registered only 2 days ago. I do not know what you mean about "an easy meal" regarding "Feeneyties" (which I am definitely not) and "crypto vacantists" (whatever that means).

    You have firstly resorted to name-calling by referring to me as "Militant ecclesia dei types(you)." If our pope has allowed me to choose to go to a FSSP mass, then I do not see the problem there. Also, I do not and have never considered SSPX (R&R) masses to be invalid or illicit. We just disagree. Now once the SSPX has a "regular canonical status" with Rome (which its leaders are so adamant on attaining, there will really be no difference between SSPX and FSSP.  
     
    Your quote "Militant ecclesia dei types(you) may be on the shortest fuse with matthew(the moderator) here," insinuates that my opinions must not sway too far from the ones held by the "moderator." Is this true?


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #76 on: March 23, 2018, 04:53:51 PM »
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  • The new mass is valid but illicit. That's what +ABL taught, and it makes sense to me. It's a schismatic mass. That doesn't mean that the masses aren't valid.

    This is wrong. The Archbishop thought that most Masses in the Novus Ordo were invalid and there are plenty of quotes to back this up. I've pointed this out to you before. He indeed said that all the Novus Ordo masses were now doubtful, and that was in 1988. What do you think he would say today when there are even fewer bishops ordained in the Traditional Roman rite?

    Maybe you can pretend like you can continue to ignore me, but you would show that you are motivated by self-interests and not Truth if you ignore the Dominicans of Avrillé (of whom you have quoted before).

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/questionable-priestly-ordinations-in-the-conciliar-church/
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #77 on: March 23, 2018, 04:57:19 PM »
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  • Exactly.
    1. So you follow Archbishop Lefebvre, who wrote "An Open Letter to Confused Catholics," and yet was (albeit a very good man) a very confused Catholic himself. He is not an oracle, a saint, and he never possessed more authority than the popes. However, I heard many SSPX people refer to him as a "Saint." Now the SSPX Resistance claims to be carrying on in the true tradition and spirit of Archbishop Lefebvre...both organizations therefore appear to be rising the Archbishop up to a "cult figure."

    2. I have yet to find one SSPX (or R&R) adherent who can state one. I expected such a response.

    3. You consider not only this pope but all post-conciliar popes who celebrate the New Mass as "mentally ill fathers"....very interesting. So, the pope is mentally ill. Are all of the cardinals in Rome also mentally ill? Is the entire Novus Ordo church hierarchy mentally ill?


    Why are you so focused on the new mass? Are you are priest in the conciliar church?

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #78 on: March 23, 2018, 05:01:00 PM »
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  • Is the entire Novus Ordo church hierarchy mentally ill?

    It is most probably the case. The Church has seen this before to a similar degree with the Arian heresy. There is plenty of evidence that we are living in the times of the Great Apostasy and clerics on all sides point this out. At what point in the Great Apostasy is up for debate.

    You should also remember that the Latin Church is but one Church of the Catholic Church. There are many other Churches (sui juris) that make up the Catholic Church. Some of them are modernist and some are far from it from what I have seen. It makes sense that the seed of the Faith is the blood of martyrs and those Churches that were severely persecuted by either Communists or Islamists have maintained the True Faith. Over here in the western world, we've had a comfortable ride. Devout Catholics pray for material goods in Latin churches while in other lands they are praying to keep their necks.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #79 on: March 23, 2018, 05:07:35 PM »
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  • Why are you so focused on the new mass? Are you are priest in the conciliar church?
    Firstly, I am neither a priest in the conciliar church nor in the traditional church (to use your terminology). 

    Secondly, my concerns are related to any issues concerning the Mass period (whether it be the Latin Mass or Novus Ordo Mass) because, as we all know, the Mass is the most important religious activity in Catholicism. In my opinion, we as Catholics should be focused on any and all aspects of what is considered a "mass." 

    Thirdly, can you please explain to me how the current Vicar of Christ on Earth is "mentally ill" along with all of the Novus Ordo cardinals in Rome and the rest of the Novus Ordo Church hierarchy?


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #80 on: March 23, 2018, 05:08:44 PM »
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  • Firstly, I am neither a priest in the conciliar church nor in the traditional church (to use your terminology).

    Secondly, my concerns are related to any issues concerning the Mass period (whether it be the Latin Mass or Novus Ordo Mass) because, as we all know, the Mass is the most important religious activity in Catholicism. In my opinion, we as Catholics should be focused on any and all aspects of what is considered a "mass."

    Thirdly, can you please explain to me how the current Vicar of Christ on Earth is "mentally ill" along with all of the Novus Ordo cardinals in Rome and the rest of the Novus Ordo Church hierarchy?

    Have you ever heard of the term, "modernism?" Do you know what it is?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #81 on: March 23, 2018, 05:32:43 PM »
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  • Have you ever heard of the term, "modernism?" Do you know what it is?
    Yes, I am absolutely familiar with the term. I own and recommend the book "The Popes Against Modern Errors" (published by TAN Books) which contains 16 papal docuмents condemning Modernism (such as the famous ones by Pope St. Pius X, etc.). I have also purchased other papal encyclicals from Angelus Press concerning Modernism that were not included in the aforementioned book.

    However, despite the indisputable fact that Modernism has greatly swept into the post-Vatican II Church and especially into the Mass (as well docuмented in the SSPX book "The Problem of Liturgical Reform", another book which I own and recommend), the New Mass itself has not been proven to contain an "invalid consecration" from taking place. Luke 22:19 states what is required for a "valid consecration" [i.e. transubstantiation] and such a valid consecration remains present in the New Mass.

    Now to say that the Latin Mass is 1,000,000 times better than the New Mass is one thing (a position which I personally hold) but to go so far as to say that all of the popes for the last 50 + years are "mentally ill" because they celebrate the New Mass, IMO, is a false and extreme statement that will lead many Traditional Catholics down the road to sedevacantism.

    When you look at the complete history of the SSPX, you see that most of the Traditional clergy who have departed from the SSPX over the years (whether through expulsion or otherwise) have also become sedevacantists. Even Archbishop Lefebvre himself had said many things that can be attributed to the sedevacantist position. All I am saying is that such constant and extreme disdain for the popes,  as well for the NO hierarchy, will most likely lead SSPX adherents to sedevacantism (a position which personally have never held and will never hold). I believe this will happen as soon as SSPX reconciles with Rome. 

    Unfortunately, it's sad situation. We will have to wait and see what happens.
     

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #82 on: March 23, 2018, 05:38:41 PM »
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  • The new mass is valid but illicit. That's what +ABL taught, and it makes sense to me. It's a schismatic mass. That doesn't mean that the masses aren't valid. The Eastern Orthodox masses are valid too. But illicit.

    I don't condemn people for attending the New Mass, even though that's what Resistance-type trads often do. However, the new mass has severe flaws. It was not actually promulgated according to the accepted rules of the Church (the conciliar church is another matter). The new mass is a sad made-up thing, meant to appease protestants and lukewarm Catholics by watering down the liturgy and making it all in the vernacular, so that everything that is said at the altar is understood by the faithful, and also so that they can "participate."

    Masses in the Catholic Church are not supposed to be invented by a committee, as the new mass was. That's not how our religion has ever worked. It is, however, how the conciliar church works. The conciliar church has its new institutions: new code of canon law, new liturgy, new formula for canonizing supposed saints. You get the drift.

    We do not have to adhere to the New Church as far as it has left the timeless traditions and teachings of the Popes before the Council. There is not much of an opportunity to obey good rules that the conciliar Popes have instituted, and I can't really think of what those might be. We are obliged to maintain our Catholic faith and we can reject novelties such as the new mass. That doesn't mean that we have to reject those who attend the new mass, or that we reject the pope. Just because we distance ourselves from a mentality ill father, this doesn't mean that he isn't still our father.
    You say the mass is valid but illicit because that's what +ABL taught and it makes sense to you.  Ok.  I was taught the same thing.  But where does liceity come from? Answer: The hierarchy/Pope/Church.  So, upon reexamination two things stand out: Saying the mass is illicit means
    1. We place trust in +ABL and not the Pope (at least 2 Popes, up to 6 or 7). 
    2. That the Popes made the mistake pretending liceity, vs. +ABL's assessment. 
    3. That, at least in practice, the Church has also made a mistake.
    The Pope was given the greater authority and +ABL not. Our consciences then say, "its about the Faith" so we believe +ABL.  Yea, but we don't have to deny that +ABL saved the Latin Mass if we say his position on liceity was off, because we cannot be absolutely sure his position on liceity is correct. The good Archbishop is not infallible.  However, saying +ABL's position on liceity is true, we automatically deny the Popes.  Not good. I think we can wonder about liceity, even validity, but we can't know. Taking this position does not deny that moderns made their way in and jacked things up--they did. But we also don't have to discard Popes, or their God-given authority in order to know how to eliminate sin, do penance and pray, trust Christ's Mercy etc, things that will gain us heaven. This position continues to recognize that the most recent Popes were infected with modernism. But, that's on them and those that run with it. Ultimately, there is a safeguard that teaches the Pope/Church are infallible. Why does that suddenly no longer apply? Because we know better? The Church also teaches, what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. In order for these protections to remain true, it appears to me at least, that the Church was stretched to Her limits, not beyond.  Evil prelates simply capitalized on it better than Catholics resisted because Catholics ran away, despaired, divided, separated but did not come together in prayer. <----That's the problem. 
    From this position, the NO very well could have been permitted by God for reasons we don't understand.  Was it a good thing?  I'm tempted to say no, but have to ask: Is it bringing people into the Church?  I'd say yes, which is definitely a good thing because God can reach those inside the Church by their reception of the Holy Eucharist, and ultimately correct them, yes, even root out the modernism they imbibe! As dangerous as modernism is, it is not more powerful than Jesus Christ. Isn't God doing the same for traditionals?  We can be sure God does not do the same for those outside the Church. This position doesn't have to automatically accept even one iota of modernism, it merely submits, specifically, to what it does not have the authority to deny. This position brings hope too, because while our Church is in mortal battle, it is edifying to realize that many more souls who reside within the confines of our Church, the hope for salvation, if they permit Jesus to guide them in spite of the lies and heresies that surround them, and if we pray for them, loving them as our own body.               


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #83 on: March 23, 2018, 05:47:58 PM »
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  • Yes, I am absolutely familiar with the term. I own and recommend the book "The Popes Against Modern Errors" (published by TAN Books) which contains 16 papal docuмents condemning Modernism (such as the famous ones by Pope St. Pius X, etc.). I have also purchased other papal encyclicals from Angelus Press concerning Modernism that were not included in the aforementioned book.

    However, despite the indisputable fact that Modernism has greatly swept into the post-Vatican II Church and especially into the Mass (as well docuмented in the SSPX book "The Problem of Liturgical Reform", another book which I own and recommend), the New Mass itself has not been proven to contain an "invalid consecration" from taking place. Luke 22:19 states what is required for a "valid consecration" [i.e. transubstantiation] and such a valid consecration remains present in the New Mass.

    Now to say that the Latin Mass is 1,000,000 times better than the New Mass is one thing (a position which I personally hold) but to go so far as to say that all of the popes for the last 50 + years are "mentally ill" because they celebrate the New Mass, IMO, is a false and extreme statement that will lead many Traditional Catholics down the road to sedevacantism.

    When you look at the complete history of the SSPX, you see that most of the Traditional clergy who have departed from the SSPX over the years (whether through expulsion or otherwise) have also become sedevacantists. Even Archbishop Lefebvre himself had said many things that can be attributed to the sedevacantist position. All I am saying is that such constant and extreme disdain for the popes,  as well for the NO hierarchy, will most likely lead SSPX adherents to sedevacantism (a position which personally have never held and will never hold). I believe this will happen as soon as SSPX reconciles with Rome.

    Unfortunately, it's sad situation. We will have to wait and see what happens.
     
    I never said that the popes of the last 50 years have been mentally ill. If you want to have a reasonable debate, then you need to be honest.
    I said if our father is mentally ill, then we can distance ourselves from him.

    Modernism is a heresy, and to me an illness. Pope Francis has a severe case of it. He's bonkers. But he still is the Pope. And it's good, really, to have a pope who is up-front in his modernism, because now the world can see (if it wants to) the ugliness of modernism. Pope Benedict and JP2 still gave an illusion of having at least some tradition, which was actually worse, IMO.

    Bishop Williamson has said that God will give us a good pope when there are enough Catholics who want one. Most Catholics in the conciliar church are fine with Pope Francis. Imagine what would happen if we had another pope like Pope St. Pius X? The conciliar church Catholics wouldn't stand for it.

    I do agree that disdain for the Pope can lead some to sedevacantism. You'll notice that many of us here don't focus so much on the Pope, and the latest crazy thing he has done. We already know he's a modernist. But it is good to know and keep up with his shenanigans. I have pity for Francis.

    You may have noticed that a lot of sedevacantists post here. That's a huge problem, IMO, but it's not my forum. The sedes don't really go after the SSPX anymore for converts to their error. They now mine for converts here. I do think that the Resistance will eventually be taken over by them. But hopefully not for awhile.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #84 on: March 23, 2018, 05:51:46 PM »
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  • You say the mass is valid but illicit because that's what +ABL taught and it makes sense to you.  Ok.  I was taught the same thing.  But where does liceity come from? Answer: The hierarchy/Pope/Church.  So, upon reexamination two things stand out: Saying the mass is illicit means
    1. We place trust in +ABL and not the Pope (at least 2 Popes, up to 6 or 7).  
    2. That the Popes made the mistake pretending liceity, vs. +ABL's assessment.  
    3. That, at least in practice, the Church has also made a mistake.
    The Pope was given the greater authority and +ABL not. Our consciences then say, "its about the Faith" so we believe +ABL.  Yea, but we don't have to deny that +ABL saved the Latin Mass if we say his position on liceity was off, because we cannot be absolutely sure his position on liceity is correct. The good Archbishop is not infallible.  However, saying +ABL's position on liceity is true, we automatically deny the Popes.  Not good. I think we can wonder about liceity, even validity, but we can't know. Taking this position does not deny that moderns made their way in and jacked things up--they did. But we also don't have to discard Popes, or their God-given authority in order to know how to eliminate sin, do penance and pray, trust Christ's Mercy etc, things that will gain us heaven. This position continues to recognize that the most recent Popes were infected with modernism. But, that's on them and those that run with it. Ultimately, there is a safeguard that teaches the Pope/Church are infallible. Why does that suddenly no longer apply? Because we know better? The Church also teaches, what is bound on earth is bound in heaven. In order for these protections to remain true, it appears to me at least, that the Church was stretched to Her limits, not beyond.  Evil prelates simply capitalized on it better than Catholics resisted because Catholics ran away, despaired, divided, separated but did not come together in prayer. <----That's the problem.  
    From this position, the NO very well could have been permitted by God for reasons we don't understand.  Was it a good thing?  I'm tempted to say no, but have to ask: Is it bringing people into the Church?  I'd say yes, which is definitely a good thing because God can reach those inside the Church by their reception of the Holy Eucharist, and ultimately correct them, yes, even root out the modernism they imbibe! As dangerous as modernism is, it is not more powerful than Jesus Christ. Isn't God doing the same for traditionals?  We can be sure God does not do the same for those outside the Church. This position doesn't have to automatically accept even one iota of modernism, it merely submits, specifically, to what it does not have the authority to deny. This position brings hope too, because while our Church is in mortal battle, it is edifying to realize that many more souls who reside within the confines of our Church, the hope for salvation, if they permit Jesus to guide them in spite of the lies and heresies that surround them, and if we pray for them, loving them as our own body.              

    Yes, the new mass could have been permitted by God, by His permissive will. Just as the horrible council was allowed, and the bad conciliar popes. That's one reason why I could never be a sede. God has allowed these things to happen for a reason. We still have to keep our faith, and if possible, our charity. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #85 on: March 23, 2018, 06:05:53 PM »
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  • Yes, the new mass could have been permitted by God, by His permissive will. Just as the horrible council was allowed, and the bad conciliar popes. That's one reason why I could never be a sede. God has allowed these things to happen for a reason. We still have to keep our faith, and if possible, our charity.
    Thumbs up is mine, Meg.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #86 on: March 23, 2018, 06:09:50 PM »
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  • Thumbs up is mine, Meg.

    Thanks!  :)

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #87 on: March 23, 2018, 06:12:21 PM »
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  • I never said that the popes of the last 50 years have been mentally ill. If you want to have a reasonable debate, then you need to be honest.
    I said if our father is mentally ill, then we can distance ourselves from him.
    I apologize and I agree with you that the Resistance will unfortunately drift toward sedevacantism sooner or later. 

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #88 on: March 23, 2018, 06:15:21 PM »
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  • I apologize and I agree with you that the Resistance will unfortunately drift toward sedevacantism sooner or later.

    It is indeed unfortunate. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #89 on: March 23, 2018, 08:31:34 PM »
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  •  

    When klasG4e says: " Human conception may take place in a whore house as the result of mortal sin committed by two individuals" in order to compare the new Mass with the old, he is not only comparing apples and oranges, but assuming a seat greater than the Pope's to express a most disturbing analogy.  Christ in the Eucharist is the center of our Faith, of the Church, of our human existence, so if He is Present at the NO Masses, His Presence is not only not evil, but a supreme good.  There is no such thing as a bastard Christ, as the comparison so rudely suggests.

        

    Happenby, I can understand how you could be scandalized by what I said.  I think there was a time when I would have been as well.  However, I am afraid you are placing an erroneous and gross interpretation on what I said.  Your reference to "apples and oranges" is a rhetorical distraction, whether intended or not.  Nor am I "assuming a seat greater than the Pope's to express a most disturbing analogy," although granted -- the analogy is quite disturbing as I most definitely wanted it to be.

    Please recall that the Mass is a ritual.  It is not, nor will it ever be synonymous with the Blessed Sacrament, the Eucharist (100% holy).  Being 100% holy Christ (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity) is obviously deserving of being treated in a most holy and reverential way, hence down through the ages Holy Mother Church has preserved for us the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass via the traditional Latin Ritual. 

    Of course, there is no such thing as a bastard Christ.  For you to say that my comparison of a bastard child conceived by fornication "rudely suggests" such is beyond the pale.  That a child is given the status of bastard due to the circuмstances of its conception in no way infringes or changes in any way the inherent sacredness of the human life and of the human being conceived.  The condemnation of the evil of fornication in bringing about the life of the child does not attach to the inherent nature of the child.  If the infant receives a valid Christian Baptism it is a pure soul, perhaps far too beautiful for ordinary human contemplation.  Nevertheless the infant is still legitimately referred to as illegitimate and hence a bastard.  The Baptism in and of itself changes nothing in that regard.

    If transubstantiation takes places in a Novus Ordo Mass the bread and wine become the infinitely holy Body, Bread, Soul and Divinity of Christ.  That is not at issue here.  What is at issue is the bastardized rite of the Novus Ordo Mass.  That Christ may possibly become present in the bastardized Novus Ordo Mass does not change the bastardized nature of the Novus Ordo Mass.  It remains a sacrilegious (and hence evil) rite.  At the same time the Holy Ghost has preserved the holy integrity of the Church's doctrine by never allowing the Church's Magisterium to strictly mandate under penalty of sin the attendance of the faithful at this sacrilegious rite. 

    If you can bear it listen to some of the wise and courageous words of the great and saintly Abp. Marcel Lefebvre:

    "It is precisely because this union desired by the liberals, between the Church and the Revolution and subversion, is an adulterous union, only of this adulterous union can come only bastards! And who are these bastards These are our rites, the laugh of the new Mass is a bastard ritual! The sacraments are bastard sacraments: we do not know whether these sacraments give grace or do not give it. "  See: Sermon of August 29, 1976 in Lille, in Ecône, pulpit of truth (Iris, 2015), pp. 997-998.


    "Let us immediately destroy this absurd idea: if the new Mass is valid, we can participate in it. The Church has always forbidden to attend the masses of schismatics and heretics, even if they are valid. It is evident that we can not participate in sacrilegious masses, nor in masses that place our faith in danger. " See the Mass of the Almighty, Clovis, 2006, p. 391.


     "Your perplexity then perhaps takes the following form: can I attend a Sacrilegious Mass, but which is valid, if there is no other, and to satisfy the Sunday obligation? The answer is simple: these masses can not be the object of an obligation; We must also apply to them the rules of moral theology and canon law as regards the participation or assistance in a perilous action for the faith or possibly sacrilege. The new mass, even if it is said with piety and respect for liturgical norms, falls under the same reservations since it is imbued with a Protestant spirit. " 
    Open letter to perplexed Catholics, Albin Michel, 1985, pp. 42-43.