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Author Topic: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?  (Read 8509 times)

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Offline PG

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Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2018, 11:42:05 AM »
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  • Firstly, I do not believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is an incentive to impiety. I recognize it as both valid and licit. The SSPX, however, recognizes the New Mass as valid but illicit.
    You really need to stop abusing that canon.  The conciliar church is not the "official church".  Therefore it is not synonymous with "the catholic church" expressed in the canon.  You are erroneously applying the canon to your detriment.  The position of +wiliamson/resistance is the best.  It is illicit with exceptions.  Because, exceptions do not need to be defined case by case.  It is called epikeia.  
    And, on the flipside.  It is not licit with exceptions. Because, rubrics do need to be approved and defined case by case.  And, within the new "approved" rubrics are the very rubrics that were at least implicitly condemned by Pius V and previous popes.  The new mass and old mass are so clearly opposed to each other that the promotion of one leads to the demotion of the other.  They are not as benedict xvi would say one and the same.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #61 on: March 23, 2018, 11:53:24 AM »
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  • Sorry, I do not believe that the New Mass is clearly evil because a valid consecration (i.e. transubstantiation) occurs during the Mass. I cannot find any evidence to the contrary, even in the SSPX's well-researched and argued book "The Problem of the Liturgical Reform."
    Canon hesse argued that the usa translation "for you and for all" was an invalidating factor.  That casts a doubt on nearly 40 years of usa liturgies.  So, there is plenty of evidence.  And, it cannot be said that a valid consecration occurs at every mass.  It may not even be licit to grant the benefit of the doubt linguistically.  It should be said, the new mass "can" be valid; not the new mass "is" valid.  Ends do not justify the means.  And, likewise, the ends(the works/fruits) of the novus ordo mass have not justified the means(papal promulgation and theoretical legitimacy) of the new mass.  So, don't form your judgement solely from papal approval/the letter of the law.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #62 on: March 23, 2018, 12:39:15 PM »
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  • Canon hesse argued that the usa translation "for you and for all" was an invalidating factor. 

    If the NOM is indeed invalid, it would be on account of having being promulgated by a false Pope; not the "for you and for all" factor. Otherwise, the same could be argued against the validity of the Eastern rites which use such wording. It is understood by the Church that the "ALL" is referring to simply the elect.

    A couple of Eastern sacramental forms:

    Quote
    THE ANAPHORA OF ST. JOHN THE APOSTLE AND EVANGELIST:  
     
    "This is the chalice of my blood of the New Testament: Take, drink ye of it: this is shed forth for the life of the world, for the expiation of transgressions, the remission of sins to ALL that believe in him forever and ever.”
     
    THE ANAPHORA OF ST. MARK THE EVANGELIST: 
     
    “This is my blood of the New Testament: Take, drink ye all of it, for the remission of sins of you and of ALL the true faithful, and for eternal life.”

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #63 on: March 23, 2018, 01:16:24 PM »
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  • Sorry, I do not believe that the New Mass is clearly evil because a valid consecration (i.e. transubstantiation) occurs during the Mass. I cannot find any evidence to the contrary, even in the SSPX's well-researched and argued book "The Problem of the Liturgical Reform."
    And I am sorry that you "do not believe that the New Mass is clearly evil because a valid consecration (i.e. transubstantiation) occurs during the Mass."  Human conception may take place in a whore house as the result of mortal sin committed by two individuals.  That very real human conception does not make the mutual fornication or the whore house where it takes place good.  They remain evil.  Can you not see that?

    Please take a good look at the below linked vintage SSPX article.  Pay careful attention to its clear and unambiguous assertion that sacrilege is evil and its explanation of how the Novus Ordo Mass (i.e., the New Mass) is sacrilegious  and therefore evil.  If you do not believe that the New Mass is sacrilegious please present a counter argument to what is stated in the article.

    See http://archives.sspx.org/Catholic_FAQs/catholic_faqs__traditional.htm#attendnovusordo

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #64 on: March 23, 2018, 02:27:34 PM »
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  • I also wonder: if Pope Benedict XVI declared the New Mass and the Old mass were two forms of the same rite in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificuм, unless someone else is Pope, or there is no Pope, why shouldn't those who believe Benedict was a true Pope submit to BXVI? Or admit--that they are sedevacantist. 

    When klasG4e says: " Human conception may take place in a whore house as the result of mortal sin committed by two individuals" in order to compare the new Mass with the old, he is not only comparing apples and oranges, but assuming a seat greater than the Pope's to express a most disturbing analogy.  Christ in the Eucharist is the center of our Faith, of the Church, of our human existence, so if He is Present at the NO Masses, His Presence is not only not evil, but a supreme good.  There is no such thing as a bastard Christ, as the comparison so rudely suggests.

        


    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #65 on: March 23, 2018, 02:43:05 PM »
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  • And I am sorry that you "do not believe that the New Mass is clearly evil because a valid consecration (i.e. transubstantiation) occurs during the Mass."  Human conception may take place in a whore house as the result of mortal sin committed by two individuals....sacrilege is evil and its explanation of how the Novus Ordo Mass (i.e., the New Mass) is sacrilegious  and therefore evil.  If you do not believe that the New Mass is sacrilegious please present a counter argument to what is stated in the article.

    Of course if something is sacrilegious it is evil. However, if you, along with the SSPX (& other R&R groups) believe that the Mass celebrated by each and every one of your popes since 1969 is sacrilegious and evil, then how can you call such people "Vicars of Christ?"

    Doing so means that the Vicar of Christ on Earth has continuously, since 1969, been consciously and deliberately celebrating a ceremony that is clearly sacrilegious and evil. Would a true Vicar of Christ do such a thing over and over and over again for now almost 50 years? How can you claim such people to be true Vicars of Christ on Earth? You are either being deliberately dishonest with yourself or are sadly extremely ignorant and inconsistent when it comes to following basic logic.
    If the NOM is indeed invalid, it would be on account of having being promulgated by a false Pope

    Cantarella's above quote is 100% correct. To think otherwise is either to be deliberately dishonest or to be inconsistent when it comes to following basic logic (i.e. a polite way of saying "foolish"). However, talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.

    You really need to stop abusing that canon.  The conciliar church is not the "official church".
    PG's comment is also either a result of deliberate dishonesty or massive ignorance. A Catholic cannot abuse a canon. Either one obeys it or one doesn't. Also, there is only one Church....not an "official church" and an "unofficial church" or a church that is half and half or two-thirds either way. Such thinking is akin to schismatic thinking.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #66 on: March 23, 2018, 02:48:47 PM »
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  • Pope Francis is the head of both churches - conciliar and Catholic

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/

    I'm trying to picture Siamese twins with two bodies and yet one head.

    Welcome to sedeprivationism.  Only way this could be the case is if you make some kind of formal distinction.

    Francis is materially head of the Catholic Church while formally the head of the Conciliar.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #67 on: March 23, 2018, 02:50:18 PM »
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  • Also, there is only one Church....not an "official church" and an "unofficial church" or a church that is half and half or two-thirds either way. Such thinking is akin to schismatic thinking.

    Archbishop Lefebvre believed that there is a conciliar church. The existence of the conciliar church explains the current Crisis. Have you read the Archbishop's view of the subject? 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #68 on: March 23, 2018, 02:51:16 PM »
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  • I'm trying to picture Siamese twins with two bodies and yet one head.

    Welcome to sedeprivationism.  Only way this could be the case is if you make some kind of formal distinction.

    Francis is materially head of the Catholic Church while formally the head of the Conciliar.

    Read the link, sede. You might learn something. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #69 on: March 23, 2018, 02:51:28 PM »
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  • I also wonder: if Pope Benedict XVI declared the New Mass and the Old mass were two forms of the same rite in his motu proprio Summorum Pontificuм, unless someone else is Pope, or there is no Pope, why shouldn't those who believe Benedict was a true Pope submit to BXVI? Or admit--that they are sedevacantist.
    Happenby, your above comment is both honest and consistent with logical thinking. Unfortunately, honesty and or consistency is something that the SSPX (and other like-minded groups) are deliberately avoiding.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #70 on: March 23, 2018, 02:55:35 PM »
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  • Happenby, your above comment is both honest and consistent with logical thinking. Unfortunately, honesty and or consistency is something that the SSPX (and other like-minded groups) are deliberately avoiding.

    So....if we don't obey everything that the conciliar popes have taught - it means that we are sedevacantists - and we should admit therefore to it? That's what the Sedes believe, too. So you're in good company there.

    Both the progressives and the sedes believe in blind loyalty to popes.

    Did you by any chance wander in here from the OnePeterFive blog?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Hank Igitur Orate Fratre

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #71 on: March 23, 2018, 03:24:40 PM »
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  • So....if we don't obey everything that the conciliar popes have taught - it means that we are sedevacantists - and we should admit therefore to it? That's what the Sedes believe, too. So you're in good company there.
    Meg, I am not saying that the SSPX and other R&R groups are wrong for "not obeying everything that the conciliar popes have taught," I am saying that the SSPX and other R&R groups are wrong for "not accepting the New Mass as licit."

    We are not talking about disobeying something petty, we are talking about disobeying a dogmatic canon of the Catholic Church concerning the MASS, the most important religious activity in Catholicism.

    Do you revere and respect any conciliar popes whom you claim to be the "Vicars of Christ on Earth?" Is there anything that you obey which the conciliar popes have taught that has not already been taught by pre-conciliar popes? If not, then how can you, in good faith and conscience, consider these men to be the Vicars of Christ on Earth?

    Offline PG

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #72 on: March 23, 2018, 03:34:40 PM »
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  • Of course if something is sacrilegious it is evil. However, if you, along with the SSPX (& other R&R groups) believe that the Mass celebrated by each and every one of your popes since 1969 is sacrilegious and evil, then how can you call such people "Vicars of Christ?"
    I recommend instead of starting tired politicized threads laces with sufficient insult to raise suspicion turning R&R members off to discussion, you instead read all of the past discussions generally pertaining to your questions/interests.  Also, you will avoid attracting the many crypto vacantists and feeneyites who are members, who can quickly spot an amateur and an easy meal.   Militant ecclesia dei types(you) may be on the shortest fuse with matthew(the moderator) here, so I recommend you be polite if you have any questions, and occupy yourself with the forum archives.  


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #73 on: March 23, 2018, 03:50:21 PM »
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  • So....if we don't obey everything that the conciliar popes have taught - it means that we are sedevacantists - and we should admit therefore to it? That's what the Sedes believe, too. So you're in good company there.

    Both the progressives and the sedes believe in blind loyalty to popes.

    Did you by any chance wander in here from the OnePeterFive blog?
    There's a big difference in accepting what recent popes have taught regarding the NO, and leaving Tradition.  We don't have to exit Tradition in order to attend the NO, nor leave Tradition because we recognize the NO is somehow Catholic. However, its a mighty big leap to insist the NO is not a true Mass when Popes teach otherwise.  No, we don't have to believe everything a Pope says.  But we do have to believe what Popes teach and what the Church practices.  Not even ++Lefevbre said the NO was invalid. At the very least, Pope BXVI says its legit.  What do we do with that?  My take is this: Shrug, pray and do sacrifice until the spirit of the false Church held within the hearts of many is driven from Christendom.  Prayer and sacrifice are not very glamorous, but remain the only answers to our woes. If Catholics would pipe down and purpose to excel in these powerful weapons, we'd be sure to conquer the lies and heresies too tightly woven to untangle otherwise.    

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Is the SSPX/SSPX Resistance crypto-Sedevacantist?
    « Reply #74 on: March 23, 2018, 04:12:29 PM »
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  • Meg, I am not saying that the SSPX and other R&R groups are wrong for "not obeying everything that the conciliar popes have taught," I am saying that the SSPX and other R&R groups are wrong for "not accepting the New Mass as licit."

    We are not talking about disobeying something petty, we are talking about disobeying a dogmatic canon of the Catholic Church concerning the MASS, the most important religious activity in Catholicism.

    Do you revere and respect any conciliar popes whom you claim to be the "Vicars of Christ on Earth?" Is there anything that you obey which the conciliar popes have taught that has not already been taught by pre-conciliar popes? If not, then how can you, in good faith and conscience, consider these men to be the Vicars of Christ on Earth?

    The new mass is valid but illicit. That's what +ABL taught, and it makes sense to me. It's a schismatic mass. That doesn't mean that the masses aren't valid. The Eastern Orthodox masses are valid too. But illicit. 

    I don't condemn people for attending the New Mass, even though that's what Resistance-type trads often do. However, the new mass has severe flaws. It was not actually promulgated according to the accepted rules of the Church (the conciliar church is another matter). The new mass is a sad made-up thing, meant to appease protestants and lukewarm Catholics by watering down the liturgy and making it all in the vernacular, so that everything that is said at the altar is understood by the faithful, and also so that they can "participate."

    Masses in the Catholic Church are not supposed to be invented by a committee, as the new mass was. That's not how our religion has ever worked. It is, however, how the conciliar church works. The conciliar church has its new institutions: new code of canon law, new liturgy, new formula for canonizing supposed saints. You get the drift.

    We do not have to adhere to the New Church as far as it has left the timeless traditions and teachings of the Popes before the Council. There is not much of an opportunity to obey good rules that the conciliar Popes have instituted, and I can't really think of what those might be. We are obliged to maintain our Catholic faith and we can reject novelties such as the new mass. That doesn't mean that we have to reject those who attend the new mass, or that we reject the pope. Just because we distance ourselves from a mentality ill father, this doesn't mean that he isn't still our father. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29