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Author Topic: Is prayer considered a "work"?  (Read 1250 times)

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Offline Pelele

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Is prayer considered a "work"?
« on: October 25, 2013, 12:47:21 PM »
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  • Since faith alone doesn't suffice but you also need works, what exactly are works? Is prayer a work? Does "works" refer only to almsgiving, feeding the poor, giving food etc.?

    Is following the commandments and avoiding sin considered a work?

    I realize this may be a very stupid question but when i thought about it i had never seen an actual list or precise definition of what exactly "works" are.


    Offline Anthony Benedict

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 05:47:14 PM »
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  • The works of spiritual and corporal mercy are itemized in catechisms.

    Ideally, they should begin with, be sustained by and concluded with prayer that they may be meritorious before God, propitiatory and a fulfillment of the Divine Will.


    Offline Emitte Lucem Tuam

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 07:30:41 PM »
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  • If prayer is considered "works" then the Protty's are in deep doo doo according to their own blatant heretical interpretation of Holy Scripture - but then again, they've been in deep doo doo for over 500 years now - so nothing's changed.


    Offline TKGS

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 08:15:10 PM »
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  • While spiritual and corporal works of mercy are, obviously, works, prayer is also a work.  When the original Protestants railed against the need for works for salvation, much of their primary animus was against the chief work of salvation--the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  They were not opposed to feeding the hungry or things like that.  They were opposed to the Mass.  This was the chief reason they condemned any need for "work" in regards to salvation.

    Offline poche

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 10:19:23 PM »
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  • Prayer for the dead is a spiritual work of mercy.


    Offline Pelele

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #5 on: October 26, 2013, 12:20:42 AM »
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  • Yes, if prayer wasn't a work, then the poor pious and devout people who can't perform any corporeal works of mercy since they dont have any money wouldn't "do" any works at all.

    It also makes me think of all the monks, hermits, ascetics etc. who lived by themselves in the desert etc. and all they did was pray and do penance, they wouldn't have done any works either if prayer didn't count for works.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #6 on: October 27, 2013, 06:17:45 AM »
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  • .


    Quote from: Pelele, in the OP
    Since faith alone doesn't suffice but you also need works, what exactly are works? Is prayer a work? Does "works" refer only to almsgiving, feeding the poor, giving food etc.?

    Is following the commandments and avoiding sin considered a work?

    I realize this may be a very stupid question but when i thought about it i had never seen an actual list or precise definition of what exactly "works" are.



    This is not a stupid question at all.  And I'm glad you asked it.  


    Quote from: TKGS
    While spiritual and corporal works of mercy are, obviously, works, prayer is also a work.  When the original Protestants railed against the need for works for salvation, much of their primary animus was against the chief work of salvation--the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.  They were not opposed to feeding the hungry or things like that.  They were opposed to the Mass.  This was the chief reason they condemned any need for "work" in regards to salvation.



    That's an apt summary of what Protestantism is all about, TKGS.


    There are spiritual works of mercy and corporal works of mercy, but
    that's not all there is to works.  Prayer is also a work.  Offering any
    kind of sacrifice is a work.  Giving a thought of love to God is a work.
    Placing flowers on a gravesite and offering prayers for the faithful
    departed is a work.  Denying yourself some legitimate pleasure that
    there is no other reason to deny, with the intention of making
    reparation for the ingratitude and faithlessness and blasphemies of
    man is a work.  Any thought, or act of the will or turning of one's
    heart to God is a work.  


    These are things we should be doing constantly, every waking moment.
    The day you die will be the moment when you can no longer do any
    of these things, and then, at that point, you will only be able to look
    back with grief and chagrin at all the moments, hours, days and years
    you spent, nay, WASTED, not making such voluntary acts of self-denial,
    and your time will be OVER.  


    So the time is now.  


    In fact, you never have any time but now.  You do not have yesterday,
    and you do not have tomorrow.  You don't have one millisecond one way
    or the other.  You only have the present moment in which you can make
    an act of will toward the will of God.  And it is the will of God that we do
    penance.  And it is our fallen human nature to rebel against such work.


    We must die to ourselves and pick up our cross and follow Our Lord,
    and we must persevere in this WORK, for he who perseveres to the
    end shall be saved.  


    It was a very good question, Pelele.


    Quote from: Pelele
    Yes, if prayer wasn't a work, then the poor pious and devout people who can't perform any corporeal works of mercy since they dont have any money wouldn't "do" any works at all.

    It also makes me think of all the monks, hermits, ascetics etc. who lived by themselves in the desert etc. and all they did was pray and do penance, they wouldn't have done any works either if prayer didn't count for works.



    Absolutely.  Some of the most astounding miracles in history have
    been directly tied to the perfectly honest penances of the most
    simple and poor people.  And one of the key similarities of them
    all is, they would never have acknowledged that it was all due to
    something they did.  They were focused on God, and whatever
    happened as a consequence was God's doing, not theirs.  It's
    really amazing to see.  But the opposite is true of the practitioners
    of witchcraft, for the devil would have his followers think that it was
    their own doing that they could make prodigious things happen,
    when in fact it was the devils making them happen all along.


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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Is prayer considered a "work"?
    « Reply #7 on: October 27, 2013, 06:06:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Yes, if prayer wasn't a work, then the poor pious and devout people who can't perform any corporeal works of mercy since they dont have any money wouldn't "do" any works at all.


     
    Thaumaturgus:  there was a time when people walked around town
    using this word in everyday conversation.  That was a different age.

    In those days, when you would say that so-and-so is a 'thaumaturgus'
    you would basically be saying that he was a wonder-worker.  Notice
    the use of "worker" in that.  It's referring to a person who works
    miracles.  Therefore, miracles are a work, too.

    But as I said in the previous post, you won't find many miracle
    workers who will dare to take credit for the prodigious signs that
    followed them like a shadow.  For example, St. John Vianney, when
    they came from far and wide to acclaim him for his miracles, he
    would point to St. Philomena and say, "It was none of my doing!  
    SHE IS THE ONE who is responsible for all these things,
    every one of them!"


    Or if someone tried to tell Padre Pio they thank him for his grace
    and blessing, he would usually have some dry crack bordering on
    biting sarcasm, although at the same time, mixed with a quiet note
    of recognition.  And sometimes, the recognition wasn't so quiet. For
    example, a man practically lost his face in an industrial accident,
    and had no nose, no ears, no eyelids, nearly blind, lips gone.  He
    asked Padre Pio to cure him and so he slapped him on the left
    side of his face and the man's face was instantly restored, but only
    on the left side;  and the man was so overcome with surprise that
    he went away in amazement.  But then he came back after a few
    days, and said, "I want to thank you for healing my left side, but
    I must tell you that I can't sleep, I can't work, I can't go out in
    public, I can't see my own family, and I came back to ask you if
    you can help me again."  Padre Pio's reply was a fast left hook to
    his right cheek, as he scolded the poor man, "Oh, so you liked that,
    eh, well then here!  Have another one!"  And this second slap did
    the same as the first one, this time curing the right half of his face,
    leaving no scar or clue that he had ever been injured.



    Quote
    It also makes me think of all the monks, hermits, ascetics etc. who lived by themselves in the desert etc. and all they did was pray and do penance, they wouldn't have done any works either if prayer didn't count for works.



    You would think that someone who had been forgiven
    personally by Our Lord, and who had kissed His feet and
    collected His blood at the foot of the Cross, would have
    been assured of her salvation.  But St. Mary Magdalene
    spent the last 40 years of her life as a hermit in a cold,
    wet, lonely cave in the hills of France.  She was entirely
    devoted to doing her penance right here on earth.  She
    wasn't going to postpone it for Purgatory.  Ascetics and
    hermits are very busy with the real work of
    salvation.  

    And not a few others benefit from their penances.  But we
    are ALL called to this voluntary WORK of offering sacrifice.
    We are called to it by the fact of our baptism.  It is a kind
    of priesthood, really, a thing that gives us the right and the
    duty to bring our WORKS with us to Mass, and offer them
    with the priest in the Offertory, asking God to accept them
    because we hope they have been made perfect for our
    presentation to Him at the altar.  Newchurch would have
    you believe it is just MONEY that we offer at Mass.  But it
    is primarily our voluntary WORKS of penance that we offer.

    You can take this principle too far and say there is no
    difference between the priesthood of the laity and the
    priesthood of the ordained religious.  


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