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Offline Pravoslavni

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Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
« on: May 12, 2008, 12:39:22 PM »
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  • Offline clare

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 01:30:06 PM »
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  • Romancatholicism.org is a self-proclaimed Jansenist site! Jansenist and proud of it, in fact!

    And it has a whole section dedicated to National Socialism.


    Offline Dulcamara

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 02:39:07 PM »
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  • Let's see some quotes of official Catholic dogma/doctrine sources here...
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi

    Offline Cletus

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 02:51:16 PM »
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  • The only truth that these "Roman Catholic" heretics have on their side is that theological history is a lot more embarrassing than traditional apologetics would have us believe.

    Augustine is long overdue for being taken down a peg. The Church clearly prefers Aquinas. Augustine couldn't stand kids. Just couldn't stand 'em.

    I don't mean to quibble, but I do think we should make it clear where they stand on the National Socialism in their "section" devoted to it. I have the feeling that it's in the way of next in line for sauerbraten luncheon at Eagles Nest with Adolf and Eva.

    Offline Dulcamara

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 02:55:39 PM »
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  • "The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell." -Pope Innocent III (Maiores Ecclesiae causas, Dz 780).

    "(De malo 5, 3), such a pain of loss" (as that of the vision of God) "is compatible with a certain natural happiness. At the last judgment, when the bodies will rise to share in the punishment or reward of heaven or hell, the bodies of those who are in Limbo will also rise. Although separated from God, in which way they share the punishment of the damned in hell, they will not be tormented by remorse nor will they suffer the pain of the sense which the damned suffer forever in hell." St. Thomas Aquinas
    I renounce any and all of my former views against what the Church through Pope Leo XIII said, "This, then, is the teaching of the Catholic Church ...no one of the several forms of government is in itself condemned, inasmuch as none of them contains anythi


    Offline Pravoslavni

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 03:26:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dulcamara
    "The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell." -Pope Innocent III (Maiores Ecclesiae causas, Dz 780).

    "(De malo 5, 3), such a pain of loss" (as that of the vision of God) "is compatible with a certain natural happiness. At the last judgment, when the bodies will rise to share in the punishment or reward of heaven or hell, the bodies of those who are in Limbo will also rise. Although separated from God, in which way they share the punishment of the damned in hell, they will not be tormented by remorse nor will they suffer the pain of the sense which the damned suffer forever in hell." St. Thomas Aquinas



    Typical Latin splitting hairs. The Eastern Church never bothered to "define" the punishments of the damned. Eastern Fathers often taught, that there WAS NO DIFFERENCE between the punishment of the damned, and the love of God for the saved. Rather, God's love, given to all, torments the damned, and at the same time comforts the saved.

    I don't believe that the Church has ever dogmatically "defined" the fires of hell in such a way which binds all of the faithful to believe that the "fires" are indeed literal fires.

    Offline roscoe

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 03:29:27 PM »
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  • Luther's heresy grew out of a misinterpretation of the Augustinian doctrine of grace. In his battle with the Pelagians, he was forced to go a little to far in that direction. The result is Catharism, Jansenism, Calvinism etc. It would seem that St Alphonsus' doctrine of baptism by desire doesn't sit to well with Augustine.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 03:32:24 PM »
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  • The reason that obstinate heretics were burned at the steak was to save them from the punishment of burning in hell. I take the doctrine literally.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline roscoe

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 03:57:04 PM »
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  • There are many things that can be considered as he cause of the French Revolution. However, I don't know how many are aware of it but the failure of France to accept the Bull Unigenitus(proscribing Jansenism once and for all) was the real direct cause of Parlement usurping control of legislation in the days of Louis XV.

    This is what began the diminuation of the kings authority and led the the Constituant Assembly. It was two Jansenist priests who were the first to defy Louis XVI and join the Third Estate despite the kings prohibition of the three orders joining together. Ciao
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Cletus

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 04:24:50 PM »
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  • Except maybe for schismatics there is no question of an "Eastern Church" that is in a position to "DEFINE" anything.

    It's a really bad idea to start dismissing the teachings of the Vicar of Christ as "Latin," let alone as "Latin hair-splitting."

    I don't see why the question of literal hellfire should now pop up here. The citation from Aquinas mentions pain of sense. Are we going to philosophize that away too?

    In the olden days our Catholic Sense understood that it would be not heretical but rash and impious to deny what the most highly approved authors taught: that the fires of hell are real in some mysterious sense.

    What's next? Grumbling against a maximalist Latin interpretation of the existential effects of the Immaculate Conception in the blessed virgin's day to day life because one EASTERN Father of the Church found fault with her behavior at Cana and opined that she was one vain little lady?




    Offline Cletus

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 04:34:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    The reason that obstinate heretics were burned at the steak was to save them from the punishment of burning in hell. I take the doctrine literally.


    That's just Catholic folk wisdom. "Burn now, maybe you won't burn later." The fact that they were obstinate indicated that they might very well burn in this world and in the next.

    And let's not vent about bad times at Ponderosa.



    Offline Pravoslavni

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 11:21:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    Except maybe for schismatics there is no question of an "Eastern Church" that is in a position to "DEFINE" anything.

    It's a really bad idea to start dismissing the teachings of the Vicar of Christ as "Latin," let alone as "Latin hair-splitting."

    I don't see why the question of literal hellfire should now pop up here. The citation from Aquinas mentions pain of sense. Are we going to philosophize that away too?

    In the olden days our Catholic Sense understood that it would be not heretical but rash and impious to deny what the most highly approved authors taught: that the fires of hell are real in some mysterious sense.

    What's next? Grumbling against a maximalist Latin interpretation of the existential effects of the Immaculate Conception in the blessed virgin's day to day life because one EASTERN Father of the Church found fault with her behavior at Cana and opined that she was one vain little lady?





     I never said that the Eastern Catholic Church had the power to "define" anything. However, I was merely commenting that Latins often think about everything in a very precise and literal way, whereas, Eastern Fathers tend to be more mystical in their explaination of Church doctrines.

    Catholics may legitimately disagree, or "dismiss" the personal opinions of some Popes. And yes  most of the doctrinal teachings of the Popes are formulated in LATIN terminology, because the Pope, after all, is the Patriarch of the West.

    Offline Cletus

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #12 on: May 13, 2008, 08:28:50 PM »
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  • No one ever said that anyone ever said that the Eastern Church was ever in a position to "define" anything.

    But if someone points out that the Eastern Church never "defined" something, it is a propos to point out that the Eastern Church has never been in a position to define anything in any way at any time. Only Council Fathers and Roman pontiffs define things.

    The pope recently cited in this thread was not just expressing a personal opinion. He was teaching the Universal Church. Catholics are free to dismiss the personal opinions of ALL popes. They are not free to dismiss the doctrinal and moral teaching of ANY popes.


    Offline Pravoslavni

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 10:33:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cletus
    No one ever said that anyone ever said that the Eastern Church was ever in a position to "define" anything.

    But if someone points out that the Eastern Church never "defined" something, it is a propos to point out that the Eastern Church has never been in a position to define anything in any way at any time. Only Council Fathers and Roman pontiffs define things.
    The pope recently cited in this thread was not just expressing a personal opinion. He was teaching the Universal Church. Catholics are free to dismiss the personal opinions of ALL popes. They are not free to dismiss the doctrinal and moral teaching of ANY popes.



    You seem to forget that the first SEVEN Ecumenical Councils were held in the EAST presided over by a MAJORITY of Eastern bishops.  Most of the first seven councils were called by the Byzantine Emperor, who more or less forced Rome to agree to participate in the councils. So yes, the Eastern Church Fathers did DEFINE, in union with the Pope of Rome, the most basic doctrines of the Catholic faith which are contained in the First Seven Councils.

    The writings of the pope referenced, ARE NOT BINDING upon the faithful.

    Offline Cletus

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    Is Limbo a "heretical Pelagian fable"?
    « Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 11:29:07 AM »
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  • Those "Eastern" Councils indeed would not have been worth an ounce of chopped liver if they had not been ratified by the Roman Pontiff.

    The amazing true adventures of Pope Vigilius are instructive in this regard.

    Those Councils were Catholic. Not Eastern.

    The way in which the terms "Eastern Church" and "Eastern Fathers" are being used here is deceptive. Catholic Sense is supernatural. Parochial regional pride is all too natural. You have your Eastern emperors. The damnable bully punks.

    How "Eastern" was the Tome of Leo, the crowning jewel of Christology in the Patristic Age?

    Does everyone here know what "Dz" means, per se and when it follows a citation from a Roman Pontiff?

    Are we all sure that we know what is meant when we call the Catholic Church the Catholic Church?

     

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