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Author Topic: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?  (Read 2817 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2020, 12:13:00 PM »
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  • Pax-
    The ULTIMATE issue for me here is not Ladislaus’s falsification of St. Alphonsus, or even the degree of culpability which those following Jone’s theology will subjectively incur, but these:

    1) Is this unnatural act intrinsically evil, and therefore always forbidden regardless of circuмstance (eg., a means to the completion of the marital act)?

    2) Does the performance of this unnatural act constitute grave matter?

    3) If #2 can be demonstrated in the affirmative, can Jone’s conclusion to the contrary be maintained


    THIS is nowhere close to being the actual "ULTIMATE issue".  If it is "for [you]" as you claim, then I think that you have an unnatural obsessed with anal intercourse.  Why do you care so much?  Let individual penitents work these things out with their own Confessor.  What I care about is your trashing of Jone and your claim that he must be rejected under pain of grave sin on this issue.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #31 on: January 23, 2020, 12:14:09 PM »
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  • Sean, you're conflating everything.

    1) the particular moral question itself ... which I don't even care about per se, since it has no effect on me personally (I have made my arguments in defense of Jone ... and these were ignored, with you constantly reiterating the authority of St. Alphonsus)

    2) even if you conclude that this activity is gravely sinful, you cannot impose your conscience on others and Catholics may safely follow the opinion of Jone

    You can decide right now for any reason or no reason that you disagree with Jone.  You're entitled to do so.  But what you cannot do is to impute sin to others and tell them that they cannot follow Jone's teaching on this or any other point.
    Whoops, meant to reply to this post, but Lad keeps me coming so fast, it actually selected the latter one.
    Anyway, this is false: Even Jone imputed sin (venial) to those who commit this act.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #32 on: January 23, 2020, 12:16:34 PM »
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  • I note you continue to repent of your falsification of St. Alphonsus as a probabilist.

    I'm not even sure what this sentence means, but I was taught that St. Alphonsus taught probabilism by none other than Bishop Williamson himself at STAS.  Since you remain in contact with him, then I suggest that you correct him if you think he is wrong.  St. Alphonsus' aequiprobabilism is nothing more than a modification of probabilism to prevent its abuse into laxism, and yet you imply that it's the same things a probabiliorism, which it is not.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #33 on: January 23, 2020, 12:19:11 PM »
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  • THIS is nowhere close to being the actual "ULTIMATE issue".  If it is "for [you]" as you claim, then I think that you have an unnatural obsessed with anal intercourse.  Why do you care so much?  Let individual penitents work these things out with their own Confessor.  What I care about is your trashing of Jone and your claim that he must be rejected under pain of grave sin on this issue.
    I see you are now broadening the range of your lies, graduating from the falsification of St. Alphonsus, to the falsification of my own position, and all to keep from admitting you are wrong.
    Pathetic.
    My position is that marital sodomy is grave MATTER, and that therefore Jone should not be teaching it is venial.
    Whether it is grave SIN depends on the subjective culpability of the sodomites.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #34 on: January 23, 2020, 12:19:45 PM »
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  • Anyway, this is false: Even Jone imputed sin (venial) to those who commit this act.

    He did nothing of the sort.  He simply said it was NOT GRAVE.  It was I who added that it was likely venial in nearly all cases.  And when I say that one can safely follow the opinion, I didn't say that one could necessarily safely practice the activity in question without sin, just that one could follow the teaching that it was NOT GRAVE, as he said.

    Sean, you bumble, fumble, confused, and conflate things so badly that it's impossible to have a rational conversation with you, which is why you end up constantly emoting.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #35 on: January 23, 2020, 12:21:02 PM »
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  • False: Even Jone imputes (venial) sin to those committing this act.

    Lie.  He said nothing of the sort.  He just said it wasn't grave.  It was I who opined later that it's probably at least a venial sin in most cases.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #36 on: January 23, 2020, 12:22:18 PM »
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  • I'm not even sure what this sentence means, but I was taught that St. Alphonsus taught probabilism by none other than Bishop Williamson himself at STAS.  Since you remain in contact with him, then I suggest that you correct him if you think he is wrong.  St. Alphonsus' aequiprobabilism is nothing more than a modification of probabilism to prevent its abuse into laxism, and yet you imply that it's the same things a probabiliorism, which it is not.
    You may have been taught that Alphonsus was a probabilist before he adopted aequiprobabilism, unless you are suggesting BW doesn’t know what he is talking about.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #37 on: January 23, 2020, 12:24:44 PM »
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  • I’ll take this one.  My response to the penitent would be as follows:
    “Praised be God for making a good confession.
    As regards the matter of unnatural acts within the rendering of the marital debt, they are never permitted.  Contravening the natural law, they are intrinsically evil, and therefore can never be committed regardless of circuмstance, or as a means to an end.
    We have a direct condemnation of the act in question in Scripture, when St. Paul repudiated those women for giving up natural intercourse, and practicing unnatural intercourse.
    In your case, because you did not understand such acts constitute grave matter, your sin is venial.
    But sodomy is always serious matter (and contrary to the restrictive definition you relied upon, all unnatural sex acts constitute sodomy, which allows for different species and degrees, but remains sodomy nonetheless).
    In this regard, I would urge you not to commit this act again, and to form a firm purpose of amendment in this regard, since even the author you relied upon acknowledges it to be at least venial).
    Go in peace; your sins are forgiven.”

    So you would apply the same common invalid Novus Ordo substitution for the ego te absolvo ... essential form?   :laugh1:

    No, Sean, this would be absolutely confusing the penitent ... and would actually cause grave scandal.  Here you are insisting that this is "always serious matter" and yet giving them absolution without requiring them to refrain from ti.

    PLUS, for the third time now, Jone never said it was venial.  You must have conflated my own opinion on that matter with Jone.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #38 on: January 23, 2020, 12:25:14 PM »
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  • Lie.  He said nothing of the sort.  He just said it wasn't grave.  It was I who opined later that it's probably at least a venial sin in most cases.
    Jone:
    Positive co-operation on the part of the wife in sodomitical commerce is never lawful, hence, she must at least offer internal resistance. However, she may remain externally passive, provided she has endeavored to prevent the sin. She thus applies the principle of double effect and permits the sin to avert the danger of a very grave evil which cannot otherwise be averted; it remain unlawful for her to give her consent to any concomitant pleasure.” [Jone, Moral Theology, n. 757.]
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #39 on: January 23, 2020, 12:25:24 PM »
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  • You may have been taught that Alphonsus was a probabilist before he adopted aequiprobabilism, unless you are suggesting BW doesn’t know what he is talking about.

    No, Bishop Williamson did not make any such distinction of qualification.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #40 on: January 23, 2020, 12:26:32 PM »
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  • Jone:
    Positive co-operation on the part of the wife in sodomitical commerce is never lawful, hence, she must at least offer internal resistance. However, she may remain externally passive, provided she has endeavored to prevent the sin. She thus applies the principle of double effect and permits the sin to avert the danger of a very grave evil which cannot otherwise be averted; it remain unlawful for her to give her consent to any concomitant pleasure.” [Jone, Moral Theology, n. 757.]

    :facepalm: ... you are absolutely and utterly incompetent to discuss theology.  This is a reference to whether or not the wife can participate in perfect sodomy and has nothing to do with whether the act of imperfect sodomy is venial on the part of the husband.  It's the same mistake that Conte ignorantly stumbles on, claiming it's a self-contradicton in Jone when it's really  his own inability to understand it.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #41 on: January 23, 2020, 12:32:44 PM »
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  • :facepalm: ... you are absolutely and utterly incompetent to discuss theology.  This is a reference to whether or not the wife can participate in perfect sodomy and has nothing to do with whether the act of imperfect sodomy is venial on the part of the husband.  It's the same mistake that Conte ignorantly stumbles on, claiming it's a self-contradicton in Jone when it's really  his own inability to understand it.
    Lad-
    Can you give me an example of an intrinsically evil act which is not at least venial?
    Or are you denying unnatural sex acts are intrinsically evil?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Wrong to Attack Fr. Jone's "Moral" Theology?
    « Reply #42 on: January 23, 2020, 12:32:57 PM »
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  • I'm actually very tired of discussing this issue.

    Everyone should just ask their Confessor if it's an issue with them, and Sean just needs to shut up and quit obsessing about it.

    But, as the Catholic Encyclopedia states, the faithful may safely follow the opinions of the trained moral theologians despite what SeanJohnson says.