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Author Topic: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?  (Read 10428 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2018, 07:36:47 AM »
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  • Not sure why, but my experience with folks (several families) who attend CMRI chapels is that they're extremely worldly; their teenagers run around in public dressed very immodestly and they are all into pop culture.  Anecdotal for sure, but this lines up with the previous statement that they're "50s" Catholics.
    Interesting.  My experience with anyone who attends or is affiliated with the CMRI has been just the opposite.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #16 on: July 14, 2018, 08:05:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mega-fin on Yesterday at 07:17:46 AM
    Quote
    My understanding is that they are heavy 50’s Catholics. I have a chapel near me but never went. I have a friend who attends there, and loves it but he’s a 50’s Catholic too. They also are heavy on BoD. I hear Bp Pivarunas excommunicated someone for rejecting it? Could be wrong.


    Yes.  You are wrong.  If you want to find the truth, go to the nearby chapel and see.  If you don't want to know the truth, at least stop spreading rumors.
    .
    I don't know about "excommunication" but I do know from personal experience that anyone who does not agree with their teaching that BoD and BoB are quote, "Defined Dogmas of the Faith" are not welcome to attend their chapels.
    .
    When asked for a date of the definition or any source, they'll hand you a 1" stack of collected Xeroxes of screeds reprinted from The Remnant of one Fr. Martin Stepanich, who thus publicly excoriated the great Fr. Leonard Feeney during the last year of his life, in 1974. By any ordinary description that qualifies as the sin of detraction, or worse. But CMRI likes to keep spreading it around like confetti. But not a word is to be found of any dogmatic definition as requested in any of the copies.
    .
    I have never heard them mention extra ecclesiam nulla salus either from the pulpit or in conversations. They act as if it's Kryptonite to Superman.
    .
    But whenever the topic of the salvation of non-Catholics or of enemies of the Church comes up, they have no problem with presuming that such persons without doubt can be saved, even without Baptism of water.
    .
    The words of the Nicene Creed, "I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" to them means that the 3 baptisms are one, and their reference is a Scripture that has nothing to do with baptism, 1 John 5: 7-8. The "water" and "blood" there are the water and blood that issued from the side of Christ on the cross, not water of baptism or "baptism of blood." It's a theological topic regarding the unity of Christians in the Faith of Catholics in the Church, not outside the Church.
    .
    There are others who make this confusion too, and I've never heard a specific reference for this curiously odd exegesis. I haven't seen it in any commentary. Perhaps something by Carl Rahner or Yves Congar?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #17 on: July 14, 2018, 08:59:13 AM »
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  • Wouldn't it be accurate to say that nearly all traditional groups believe in BOB/BOD?  If so, I'm not sure why it would be necessary to discuss it here as if the CMRI were the only ones.  

    If it is necessary to focus on BOB/BOD, then perhaps this thread belongs in the sub-forum set aside for such a discussion.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #18 on: July 14, 2018, 09:03:24 AM »
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  • It really is the elephant in the room with all of these groups and a serious problem. If there are these various forms of salvation, why is the Church needed?, because its the better way?  Hogwash!

    The whole of the Faith and Scripture is interpreted through this Dogma, it is truly foundational. They tell you that it is not so, but in their theology, ignorance saves you.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #19 on: July 14, 2018, 09:06:10 AM »
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  • Wouldn't it be accurate to say that nearly all traditional groups believe in BOB/BOD?  If so, I'm not sure why it would be necessary to discuss it here as if the CMRI were the only ones.  

    If it is necessary to focus on BOB/BOD, then perhaps this thread belongs in the sub-forum set aside for such a discussion.
    As I said, they are the same as SSPX, and the resistance, so called, so if it does not bother you about one group, why should it matter about CMRI?


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #20 on: July 14, 2018, 10:00:12 AM »
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  • Wouldn't it be accurate to say that nearly all traditional groups believe in BOB/BOD?  
    .
    The point is, CMRI demands that the Faithful believe it is a DOGMA of the Faith -- effectively demoting the principle of dogma.
    In other words, they demand that the Faithful do not recognize what dogma is, why it's important, or who should care about it.
    .
    Quote
    If so, I'm not sure why it would be necessary to discuss it here as if the CMRI were the only ones.  

    If it is necessary to focus on BOB/BOD, then perhaps this thread belongs in the sub-forum set aside for such a discussion.
    .
    If it were over there in the ghetto, nobody would read it! 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #21 on: July 14, 2018, 10:07:44 AM »
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  • .
    The point is, CMRI demands that the Faithful believe it is a DOGMA of the Faith -- effectively demoting the principle of dogma.
    In other words, they demand that the Faithful do not recognize what dogma is, why it's important, or who should care about it.
    ..
    If it were over there in the ghetto, nobody would read it!
    Demand others to believe it is "dogma"? Is there actual proof that the CMRI teaches this as an organization as a whole (vs. a particular priest at a specific chapel)?   
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #22 on: July 14, 2018, 10:10:13 AM »
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  • It really is the elephant in the room with all of these groups and a serious problem. If there are these various forms of salvation, why is the Church needed?, because its the better way?  

    And that's Vatican II in a nutshell.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #23 on: July 14, 2018, 10:14:20 AM »
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  • It really is the elephant in the room with all of these groups and a serious problem. If there are these various forms of salvation, why is the Church needed?, because its the better way?  Hogwash!

    The whole of the Faith and Scripture is interpreted through this Dogma, it is truly foundational.
    They tell you that it is not so, but in their theology, ignorance saves you.
    .
    It would seem that according to their way of thinking, there is only one dogma -- invincible ignorance! 
    .
    Is it any wonder the missions are dead in the water?
    Is it any wonder nobody has any reason to convert?
    Catholicism is HARD. So why bother? 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #24 on: July 14, 2018, 10:16:27 AM »
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  • Demand others to believe it is "dogma"? Is there actual proof that the CMRI teaches this as an organization as a whole (vs. a particular priest at a specific chapel)?  
    .
    Did you see that I said this is my own personal experience?  I saw it happen with my own eyes. Are you accusing me of lying to you?
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    You might have a good point, that someone could make a project out of demanding that they make their doctrine public.
    But there is no question that this is what they teach. You can go ask them yourself if you don't believe me.
    .
    Another post in this very thread refers to articles where they deny EENS, a thrice-defined dogma ex cathedra.
    But that they're willing to contradict, and instead, claim the defined dogma worth defending under THREATS is BoD and BoB.
    As if that's going to accomplish something more than insignificance. 
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #25 on: July 14, 2018, 10:22:18 AM »
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  • .
    Did you see that I said this is my own personal experience?  I saw it happen with my own eyes. Are you accusing me of lying to you?
    A bit defensive Neil, no?

    Yes I did see that you said this is your own personal experience.  I'm not saying that didn't happen to you.  What I am asking for is the official stance of CMRI.  When I look at their website, I see no where where they call it "dogma".  Here is the page they devote to BOD/BOB:

    http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml

    And with that, I'll leave this discussion to others.  I make it a habit to stay out of this topic (i.e. I stay out of the ghetto).
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #26 on: July 14, 2018, 10:29:16 AM »
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  • And that's Vatican II in a nutshell.
    .
    You would think that someone so up-in-arms against Vat.II would have a better notion of what the Church is all about.
    .
    Emily Radecki (RIP), the mother of Fr. Dominic and Fr. Francisco (both CMRI), even though Polish, had an intense disregard for JPII (who was also Polish) and everything he represented. I found that amazing. She had a cheerful disposition that could go on for days at a time, but it instantly disappeared at the very mention of his name! 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #27 on: July 14, 2018, 10:36:09 AM »
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  • A bit defensive Neil, no?

    Yes I did see that you said this is your own personal experience.  I'm not saying that didn't happen to you.  What I am asking for is the official stance of CMRI.  When I look at their website, I see no where where they call it "dogma".  Here is the page they devote to BOD/BOB:

    http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml

    And with that, I'll leave this discussion to others.  I make it a habit to stay out of this topic (i.e. I stay out of the ghetto).
    .
    That's fine. I'm not blaming you for not wanting to talk about it.
    It's only relevant here to lend emphasis to the "elephant in the room" as JPaul aptly put it.
    Have you been able to find a nice page summarizing the history of EENS on the CMRI site?
    .
    Or, if you think that's too much to ask (some think so) then how about a page on THE NECESSITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?
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    Go ahead, take a few days, or weeks, if you need it.
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    The real topic of concern is EENS, a thrice-defined* ex cathedra dogma of the Faith -- which means,
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    If you reject EENS you're not Catholic.                      
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    See the difference?
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    .
    *Can you find any other dogma of the Faith that has been defined ex cathedra three times? 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #28 on: July 14, 2018, 11:00:07 AM »
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  • .
    I found one page with two oblique mentions of the necessity of the Church for salvation, but nothing clearly developing the theme:
    .
    http://www.cmri.org/001-conciliar-church-says-Jєωs-need-not-convert.shtml
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    Modernist Church: Conversion of the Jєωs Not Necessary
    .
    This startling heresy has come more sharply into focus in the last twenty-five years or so. Although not explicitly contained in Nostra Aetate of Vatican II, it was there implicitly (after all, in the spirit of false ecuмenism, we can’t be teaching the necessity of salvation in the one true Church founded by Christ).
    ...
    Could it be any clearer, then, that the Gospel is for all, and necessary for all, that they may be saved? “There is neither Jєω nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus“ (Galatians 3:28 ).
    .
    .
    Notice, the first is in the form of what we supposedly CAN'T do according to the unclean spirit of Vatican II, "...we can’t be teaching the necessity of salvation in the one true Church founded by Christ." The second is in the form of a question, not an authoritative teaching (which is the nature of any dogma): "Could it be any clearer, then, that the Gospel is for all, and necessary for all, that they may be saved?"
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    Is that how the Church teaches its infallible dogmas, with hypothetical negatives and rhetorical questions? 
    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, no such equivocation is allowed for the most important thing, which 2Vermont doesn't want to hear.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Is a CMRI chapel a reasonable substitute for a Resistance Mass?
    « Reply #29 on: July 14, 2018, 12:09:41 PM »
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  • .
    Here is a page containing an article written by Bishop Pivarunas that comes close to mentioning EENS but never quite gets there:
    .
    http://www.cmri.org/02-doctrinal-errors-v2.html
    .
    It has a number of useful references on several aspects of doctrinal errors of Vat.II, but never quite hits the nail on the head.
    In fact, the twin priests Radecki have been talking about their new book that was going to come out a year ago, for twice that long, and its topic is the doctrinal errors of Vatican II. I wonder if they'll have a page or two on EENS? Or ........... not?
    For example, the piece never quite gets around to mentioning the one place in Vat.II where EENS has been directly attacked, LG 8.
    .
    (Lumen Gentium paragraph 8 -- I checked with a search and found no "LG," no "lume" and no "subs" are on this CMRI page, so I'm not making a mistake. It's NOT THERE. The text in question says, after mentioning "the Church of Christ," then says, "this Church, constituted and organized as a society in this present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although (licet) many elements of sanctification and truth can be found outside her structure; such elements, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic unity". This most usually gets shortened to, "The Church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church." It's such a sore subject that EWTN -- posting an article by one Fr. Fernando Ocáriz -- devotes about 3,000 words to defending Vat.II in this regard, here, where it tries to deliver the message, by repetition, that many misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the shortened version are in circulation. So, effectively, Vat.II has been MISUNDERSTOOD by so many people for what, 53 years now, that no Pope has intervened to settle the confusion with a definitive clarification -- (?) -- uuhh -- wait........)

    From the linked page:
    .
    Ever convinced of her divine origin, the Catholic Church has always condemned the erroneous belief that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy and that it doesn’t matter to what church one belongs for men can find salvation in any church. This is the false doctrine of religious indifferentism which has been frequently condemned by the Catholic Church.
    .
    So far, so good. But can anyone explain why Bp. Mark Pivarunas fails to mention any one of the THREE ex cathedra definitions of EENS, nor does he manage to pronounce the sentence, "Outside the Church there is No Salvation?"
    .
    Notice the form his most closely approximating sentence takes:
    A statement beginning with the longstanding condemnation against an erroneous belief of one form of contradiction of the apparently-unmentionable thing (whatever-it-is). He then follows that up with an example of a denial of the thing, whatever it is.
    .
    He does not state what EENS is, but ever-so-cautiously approaches its left flank by FOUR LEVELS of abstraction:
    -- Longstanding condemnation
    -- Erroneous belief
    -- One form of contradiction
    -- False doctrine of Indifferentism
    .
    Now, don't get me wrong, these are all good points. But why does he conspicuously avoid the elephant in the room?
    .
    P.S.  I have a theory.
    .
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