Author Topic: Invincible Ignorance Loophole  (Read 3075 times)

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Offline ajpirc

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Invincible Ignorance Loophole
« on: July 25, 2011, 03:38:26 PM »
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  • I found this great article on invincible ignorance.

    http://traditionalromancatholicism.org/Invincibleignoranceanotherloophole.html

    I may have questions later on regarding invincible ignorance.
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline the smart sheep

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #1 on: July 25, 2011, 04:33:28 PM »
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  • Read
    the words of Saint Teresa of Avila: "However sinful I was , I always considered that I had some good
    intention of serving God. Yet for all that, I was shown the place in hell the devil held in store for me."

    Wow, what a statement. I'll be tuning in to this thread. Thanks aj.

    sheep


    Offline ajpirc

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #2 on: July 25, 2011, 08:45:56 PM »
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  • What I got out of this is that nobody that is invincibly ignorant will be saved. The only way that they can be saved is by them cooperating with God's grace (missionaries or an angel) to enter into the Catholic Church, either formally by becoming Catholic or informally by desiring to become Catholic, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ (liberals usually leave the "knowing" part out.)

    Liberals would see this as God in His infinite mercy will save anybody who doesn't know the Truth. But the truth is that God in His infinite mercy gives those ignorant of the Faith the grace to find the Church.
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline ajpirc

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2011, 11:15:05 AM »
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  • Any more comments regarding invincible?

    As it is said in the link, it is just a watered down or "evolved" doctrine of the liberals to promote universal salvation. According to many Saints, Popes, and Doctors of the Church, the dogma that they were taught on invincible ignorance corresponds with the traditional Catholic view (of course) on the dogma.

    I'll give some links for those quotes in the next post.
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline ajpirc

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2011, 11:24:36 AM »
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  • Sorry, I meant link not links.

    Here it is (it's from the same website):

    Ignorance of the Truths of Salvation
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev


    Offline ajpirc

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #5 on: August 12, 2011, 07:53:20 PM »
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  • I'm bumping this thread.

    Please give your opinion on what this says.
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline Sigismund

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 07:56:32 PM »
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  • It is not a loophole.  It is the teaching of the Church.  As someone above said,  such people rally are Catholic without realizing it.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline s2srea

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #7 on: August 13, 2011, 09:58:09 AM »
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  • Agreed. Its no loophole. Some people can not think, and will probably never grasp this concept. The cant figure how, "EENS" (No salvation outside the Church) could ever coexist with 'invincible ignorance'. They don't realized whoever is saved, is saved via the Graces the Church pours forth into our world.

    Apart from that, I don't spend much time on this subject, as its a matter which is beyond most of us (laity) and causes much confusion. A future council will clarify this I pray.


    Offline ajpirc

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #8 on: August 13, 2011, 01:43:21 PM »
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  • I don't think the article is refuting the teaching on invincible ignorance; it's saying that the Modernists changed this doctrine to create a loophole for Universal Salvation.

    The Catholic Church does not "pour out" sanctifying grace outside of Her members. Those who aren't inside the Church can not receive this grace unless they are united to Her. The only grace that is "poured out" to those outside is that of God showing them the Truth. This grace may be a Catholic missionary or even an angel in extraordinary cases.

    I also pray for a Council to clear up this doctrine and also clean up the Modernist heresy from the Second Vatican Council.
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev

    Offline Sigismund

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #9 on: August 13, 2011, 07:54:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Agreed. Its no loophole. Some people can not think, and will probably never grasp this concept. The cant figure how, "EENS" (No salvation outside the Church) could ever coexist with 'invincible ignorance'. They don't realized whoever is saved, is saved via the Graces the Church pours forth into our world.

    Apart from that, I don't spend much time on this subject, as its a matter which is beyond most of us (laity) and causes much confusion. A future council will clarify this I pray.


    Exactly!
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Sigismund

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #10 on: August 13, 2011, 07:56:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: ajpirc
    I don't think the article is refuting the teaching on invincible ignorance; it's saying that the Modernists changed this doctrine to create a loophole for Universal Salvation.

    The Catholic Church does not "pour out" sanctifying grace outside of Her members. Those who aren't inside the Church can not receive this grace unless they are united to Her. The only grace that is "poured out" to those outside is that of God showing them the Truth. This grace may be a Catholic missionary or even an angel in extraordinary cases.

    I also pray for a Council to clear up this doctrine and also clean up the Modernist heresy from the Second Vatican Council.


    So you don't think baptism of desire....

    Wait!  Forget I said anything.  The last thing we need is another BOD argument.  

    Move along folks.  Nothing to see here.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Exilenomore

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #11 on: August 14, 2011, 02:21:28 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadam
    Not without sorrow have we learned that another error, no less destructive, has taken possession of some parts of the Catholic world, and has taken up its abode in the souls of many Catholics who think that one should have good hope of the eternal salvation of all those who have never lived in the true Church of Christ. Therefore, they are wont to ask very often what will be the lot and condition after death of those who have not submitted in any way to the Catholic faith, and, by bringing forward most vain reasons, they make a response favorable to their false opinion. Far be it from Us, Venerable Bretheren, to presume on the limits of the divine mercy which is infinite; far from Us, to wish to scrutinize the hidden counsel and "judgments of God" which are "a great deep" [Psalms 36:6] and cannot be penetrated by human thought. But, as Our Apostolic duty, we wish your episcopal solicitude and vigilance to be aroused, so that you will strive as much as you can to drive from the mind of men that impious and equally fatal opinion, namely, that the way of eternal salvation can be found in any religion whatsoever. May you demonstrate with that skill and learning in which you excel, to the people entrusted to your care that the dogmas of the Catholic faith are in no wise opposed to divine mercy and justice.

    For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains "we shall see God as He is" [1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

    Offline Sigismund

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #12 on: August 14, 2011, 06:18:39 PM »
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  • Perfectly stated.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline twiceborn

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #13 on: August 15, 2011, 06:26:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Apart from that, I don't spend much time on this subject, as its a matter which is beyond most of us (laity) and causes much confusion.


    Indeed, and it is also a rather fruitless endeavor to spend time arguing/speculating about who is or not under invincible ignorance instead of simply proclaiming that all need to convert to the Catholic faith in order to be saved.

    In other words, talks about invincible ignorance offer absolutely no aid to evangelization and it is a subject that modernists love to dwell in so that they can expend their time finding excuses to affirm how someone can be saved outside The Church instead of trying to bring them into Her.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Invincible Ignorance Loophole
    « Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 01:13:15 AM »
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  • Invincible ignorance is real, but it only applies to one particular sin. The sin of unbelief. Therefore, those who had no way AT ALL of knowing Christ will not be condemned for THE SIN OF UNBELIEF. THAT one particular sin.

    But, they WILL be condemned for all their other sins against conscience that constitute mortal sin.

    Yeah, but if its any comfort, the invincibly ignorant are not condemned for the one sin of unbelief.


    ...like that is the only sin a person could commit...
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila


     

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