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Author Topic: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended  (Read 1219 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2019, 11:38:52 PM »
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  • Indeed, it is precisely the pervasiveness of this false new soteriology that led inexorably to the new false ecclesiology of Vatican II.  If you accept one, you have to accept both.


    https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/vatican-ii-ecclesiology-and-cmri-sspx-sspv-etc/



    Unitatis Redintegratio, Decree on Ecuмenism

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html


    Quote
    3.

    (. . .)

    Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #16 on: October 08, 2019, 11:44:43 PM »
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  • Saint Augustine Against Julian

    https://archive.org/details/fathersofthechur013910mbp/page/n281

    The Fathers of The Church, A New Translation, Volume 35

    Introduction, page XI:


    Quote
    St. Augustine wrote this work in the closing years of a life busied with three great controversies--Manichaeism, Donatism, Pelagianism, the last ending with the Contra Julianum and the Opus imperfectum contra Julianum.


    Page 258:


    Quote
    Chapter 4
     
    (. . .)
     
    Of the number of the elect and predestined, even those who have led the very worst kind of life are led to repentance through the goodness of God, through whose patience they were not taken from this life in the commission of crimes; in order to show them and their co-heirs the depth of evil from which the grace of God delivers man. Not one of. them perishes, regardless of his age at death; never be it said that a man predestined to life would be permitted to end his life without the sacrament of the Mediator. Because of these men, our Lord says: 'This is the will of him who sent me, the Father, that I should lose nothing of what he has given me.'11 The other mortals, not of this number, who are of the same mass as these, but have been made vessels of wrath, arc born for their advantage. God creates none of them rashly or fortuitously, and He also knows what good may be made from them, since He works good in the very gift of human nature in them, and through them He adorns the order of the present world. He leads none of them to the wholesome and spiritual repentance by which a man in Christ is reconciled to God, whether His patience in their regard be more generous or not unequal. Therefore, though all men, of the same mass of perdition and condemnation, unrepentant according to the hardness of their heart, treasure up wrath to themselves on the day of wrath when each will be repaid according to his works, God through His merciful goodness leads some of them to repentance, and according to his judgment does not lead others. Our Lord says He has the power to lead and draw men: 'No men can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him.'12
     
    (. . .)
     
    11 John 6.59.
    12 John 6.44.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #17 on: October 08, 2019, 11:54:46 PM »
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  • the famous funeral oration of St Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian, who died as a catechumen. He says that he had heard people expressing regret that the Emperor was not baptised. He points out that the Emperor had the intention of being baptised, and had asked him, St Ambrose, to baptise him. Will he not then receive the grace which he desired and obtain what he asked for?


    St. Ambrose

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3405.htm

    On the Mysteries

    Chapter 4:


    Quote
    20. Therefore read that the three witnesses in baptism, the water, the blood, and the Spirit, 1 John 5:7 are one, for if you take away one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism does not exist. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. Nor, again, is there the Sacrament of Regeneration without water: "For except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5 Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, wherewith he too is signed; but unless he be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive remission of sins nor gain the gift of spiritual grace.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 12:07:35 AM »
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  • Letter 53, St. Ambrose to the Emperor Theodosius

    http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ambrose_letters_06_letters51_60.htm


    Quote
    2.  I am filled, I confess, with bitter grief, not only because the death of Valentinian has been premature, but also because, having been trained in the faith and moulded by your teaching, he had conceived such devotion towards our God, and was so tenderly attached to myself, as to love one whom he had before persecuted, and to esteem as his father the man whom he had before repulsed as his enemy.

    (. . .)

    4.  But hereafter we shall have time for sorrow; let us now care for his sepulture, which your Clemency has commanded to take place in this city. If he has died without Baptism, I now keep back what I know.



    Quote
    Will he not then receive the grace which he desired and obtain what he asked for?


    Why are the words of St. Ambrose interpreted to mean he may have obtained the grace of Baptism without the sacrament?

    Valentinian did not ask for the grace of Baptism. He asked for the sacrament, which bestows the grace.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #19 on: October 09, 2019, 12:25:22 AM »
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  • http://www.thecounciloftrent.com/ch7.htm


    Quote
    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.




    St. Bernard Of Clairvaux

    On Baptism And The Office of the Bishops, pgs. 159 - 160

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879075678/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0879075678&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />


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    Quote
    8. It would be hard, believe me, to tear me away from these two pillars--I mean Augustine and Ambrose. I own to going along with them in wisdom or in error, for I too believe that a person can be saved by faith alone, through the desire to receive the sacrament, but only if such a one is forestalled by death or prevented by some other insuperable force from implementing this devout desire. Perhaps this was why the Savior, when he said: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, took care not to repeat 'whoever is not baptized', but only, whoever does not believe will be condemned, imitating strongly that faith is sometimes sufficient for salvation and that without it nothing suffices. 
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #20 on: October 09, 2019, 12:46:18 AM »
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  • invincible ignorance


    Summa Theologica I-II

    Question 62. The theological virtues

    Article 3:

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2062.htm


    Quote
    First, as regards the intellect, man receives certain supernatural principles, which are held by means of a Divine light: these are the articles of faith, about which is faith.


    Pius IX

    On Promotion of False Doctrines, 1863

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9quanto.htm




    Quote
    7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

    19.

    (. . .)

    Let us pray that the errant be flooded with the light of his divine grace, may turn back from the path of error into the way of truth and justice and, experiencing the worthy fruit of repentance, may possess perpetual love and fear of his holy name.





    Leo XIII


    On Mission Societies, 1880

    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13mis.htm



    Quote
    6.

    (. . .)

    Do men like these pour forth their prayers to God that in His mercy he may bring to the Divine light of the Gospel by His victorious grace the people sitting in the darkness?


    Pope Gregory XVI - 1832
    Summo Iugiter Studio, On Mixed Marriages

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg16/g16summo.htm


    Quote
    2. Therefore, guided by the example of Our predecessors, We are grieved to hear reports from your dioceses which indicate that some of the people committed to your care freely encourage mixed marriages. Furthermore, they are promoting opinions contrary to the Catholic faith:


    (. . .)


    Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #21 on: October 09, 2019, 12:48:50 AM »
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  • Little BabyJohnson got his little feelings hurt because several "Feeneyites" criticized him about an unrelated subject, so he now begins his vindictive spam campaign.

    There's over a dozen flavors of spam. Some are better than others. ;D
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #22 on: October 09, 2019, 02:17:28 AM »
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  • ..
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."


    Offline donkath

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #23 on: October 09, 2019, 02:19:58 AM »
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  • Quote from Samuel's take on BOD:

    Extract
    "St Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian, who died as a catechumen. He says that he had heard people expressing regret that the Emperor was not baptised. He points out that the Emperor had the intention of being baptised, and had asked him, St Ambrose, to baptise him. Will he not then receive the grace which he desired and obtain what he asked for? Did he not court unpopularity on the very day before his death, by putting Christ before men on the question of the pagan temples? If he had the spirit of Christ, did he not receive the Grace of Christ? If the martyrs are cleansed in their blood, then so is he in his good-will and piety".25


    Fr. Feeney took to task those who did not complete the Ambrose quotation round min. 4.14 on the audio:


    Round min. 4.48 is as clear as crystal
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Implicit Baptism of Desire Defined and Defended
    « Reply #24 on: October 09, 2019, 02:44:19 AM »
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  • "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."