Author Topic: Im new and I have a question about baptism.  (Read 2282 times)

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Offline SS116

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Im new and I have a question about baptism.
« on: March 15, 2015, 01:55:42 AM »
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  • I suppose I should introduce myself a little. My name is Daniel and I'm currently in the RCIA program in a local diocese. I was raised Seventh Day Adventist for a few years until my parents divorced, and after that my church attendance steadily dropped until I almost never went at all. Last year I began to notice the Catholic faith in ways I never had before, and I decided to give RCIA a shot.
    I quickly found that I strongly preferred the traditional Latin Mass over the "normal" one in English, and I have fallen deeply in love with Catholicism. Most of all, I am incredibly excited to be baptized in a couple of weeks.
    A few weeks back though, someone in class brought up SSPX and I started doing a little research on traditionalist Catholics and sedevacantists. If you guys have heard this sob story before, I'm sorry but this is weighing so heavily on my heart and I don't know what to do.
    From what I've been able to gather, you traditionalists have raised some very serious and very valid points against the whole Vatican II/Novus Ordo thing, and there is just no denying that Vatican II was heretical.
    Now comes the hard part. Can I in good conscience go forward with my baptism? I'm not typically an emotional person, but when I think about this I feel like my heart is being ripped out. The cathedral I go to every Sunday is pretty conservative. There's a solemn, dignified tone to the Mass, people are encouraged to dress appropriately, the tabernacle is prominently and centrally displayed, etc. There's none of the sort of modern tomfoolery that you often find in Protestant churches. But if what the traditionalists say is true, none of this really matters. The fact that the priests and bishop have been invalidly ordained means that none of the sacraments performed there are valid either, right?
    So how can I get baptized? I've obviously never taken communion in a Catholic church, never gone to confession or anything else. I'm not married and I was even considering the priesthood. How can I now? How am I supposed to even take communion if there aren't any valid priests?
    Any help or advice you guys can give would be greatly appreciated. Time is of the essence (Easter's only a couple of weeks away!) and I do not want to be baptized if it's invalid or if having it done by the bishop will constitute a sin!
    Thanks so much for your time, I'm sorry if this stuff has been addressed here before, and I hope I'm posting this in the right area on this forum. Thanks again, God bless you all.

    Daniel

    Offline Nadir

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #1 on: March 15, 2015, 03:26:29 AM »
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  • Welcome Daniel, and what a very interesting and joyful introduction that was.

    You obviously have a lot of deciding to do. Do not be anxious about your Baptism being invalid, if you decide to go ahead with it as part of the RCIA program. You are obviously attending a Novus Ordo Parish. Is the traditional Latin Mass you attend part of that Parish's activities?

    The Baptism you will have will be valid. The Holy Mass and the rites of the sacraments have been changed so we doubt the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass and the Sacrament of the Eucharist, but this is not definitive, because of the loss/lack of authority to decide such things. So we can say these things are doubtful, but not necessarily that they are invalid. Many of us life-long Catholics are still trying to work out these things.

    RCIA is notorious here for being superficial in their teaching of the Catholic Faith. So make sure you really know what the Church teaches from a holy traditional priest. The traditional way to learn about Catholicism is to do so privately with a priest who instructs individually. That way you will not have the social pressure which a group affords and you will not get confused messages, as sometimes happens in a group. There are many who convert through RCIA and later fall away.

    As you probably might guess you should go on learning and loving the faith till your last day on earth, and no doubt you will learn as you go along. Ask any questions you like and don't worry if it's been asked a thousand times before.

    Others will respond hopefully to give better advice than mine. I hope that helps. Remember to put yourself under the mantle of the Blessed Mother and pray her Rosary every day. If you do that you  all will be well.


    Offline SS116

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #2 on: March 15, 2015, 04:12:54 AM »
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  • Thanks so much for the reply, Nadir. I've been thinking and praying about this a lot, and I feel a lot better knowing that my baptism will be valid.

    The cathedral I go to honestly seems pretty old-school compared to some other Catholic churches I've been to. I don't know for a fact that they're Novus Ordo but I sort of assumed that virtually all Catholic churches are these days. Is it possible for a "mainstream" church not to use the Novus Ordo Mass at all? Today is the second scrutiny for the elect (which I am), so the bishop will be at the cathedral. If I get a chance, I'll raise this question with him. I've met him a few times and he's a good man, so I think I can get honest answers from him.

    Knowing that my baptism is going to be valid, I think the best thing for me to do right now would be, as you say, to keep learning and loving the faith. God's never led me astray and I can't imagine Him allowing it to happen now.

    Any other advice or input from anyone is welcome and appreciated.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #3 on: March 15, 2015, 04:49:45 AM »
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  • Welcome, Daniel.   Reading books on the faith helps.  The Baltimore Catechism books are really even though they are meant for children.
    To live with the Saints in Heaven is all bliss and glory....To live with the saints on Earth is just another story!  (unknown)

    Online songbird

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 06:08:07 PM »
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  • Why not get baptized in the traditional!  You should see the ceremony!  the New Order has the intent to indoctrinate and to initiate, not to remove Original sin.  If you are going to God, by golly, do it all traditional.  New Order, RCIA, does not have traditional, they have indult which is New Order. Get out of the RCIA!  Go traditional.  www.traditio.com has a directory of traditional sites.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #5 on: March 15, 2015, 06:59:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: SS116
    Thanks so much for the reply, Nadir. I've been thinking and praying about this a lot, and I feel a lot better knowing that my baptism will be valid.

    The cathedral I go to honestly seems pretty old-school compared to some other Catholic churches I've been to. I don't know for a fact that they're Novus Ordo but I sort of assumed that virtually all Catholic churches are these days. Is it possible for a "mainstream" church not to use the Novus Ordo Mass at all? Today is the second scrutiny for the elect (which I am), so the bishop will be at the cathedral. If I get a chance, I'll raise this question with him. I've met him a few times and he's a good man, so I think I can get honest answers from him.

    Knowing that my baptism is going to be valid, I think the best thing for me to do right now would be, as you say, to keep learning and loving the faith. God's never led me astray and I can't imagine Him allowing it to happen now.

    Any other advice or input from anyone is welcome and appreciated.


    Most dioceses will have the Fraternal Society of St. Peter, which dedicates itself to the Traditional Mass and celebrates it exclusively. I've heard some very edifying sermons by some very holy priests in the FSSP. However, they use the 1962 Missal, which some trads have a problem with because of certain changes. Earlier missals (1955, '58) have differences in saint days, classing of feasts and the Easter Vigil.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Online songbird

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #6 on: March 15, 2015, 07:37:17 PM »
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  • FSSP is dioceses owned and operated.  That is the "indult".  it is there to draw those who claim to be traditional and also want to be in dioceses/and think of this pope as a real pope, which he is not.

    All of the dioceses and FSSP have men that are NOT ordained by True Sacrament of Ordination as was given by Christ to His apostles.  The Clergy is invalid and is paid by the gov't through a dioceses.  They are to do what is known as window-dressing.  It appears latin, appears to be traditional, but nothing is taking place.  No sacraments are taking place, for their ordination of priesthood is not valid. Nothing happens there.

    The window-dressing is communistic.  It is to draw the people away from the True Traditional Group.  

    Go to www.traditio.com to see the directory of True Priest, Valid Priest.

    Offline Nadir

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #7 on: March 15, 2015, 09:34:27 PM »
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  • JdeK said:
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    However, they use the 1962 Missal, which some trads have a problem with because of certain changes.


    Certain changes have always occurred in the Mass. Change per se is not the problem. so to say this is to introduce unnecessary confusion. So, I understand do the SSPX use the 1962 rite. It is not protestantised as the Novus Ordo is.

    Fraternity of St Peter was set up for the purpose of undermining tradition, to compete with, thus take away traditional Catholics from SSPX. It is diocesan run and compromised. Stick with tradition, not window dressing.


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #8 on: March 15, 2015, 09:50:38 PM »
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  • Yeah, admittedly, I should've been more clear in that they were changes, but big changes like inserting St. Joseph's name in the Canon and the abolishing of many octaves that have irked some Trads.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Offline PG

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #9 on: March 15, 2015, 11:05:34 PM »
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  • ss116 -  Hello and welcome.  I am a pre 54 sede privationist who favors the sspv/cspv.  I highly recommend that you continue passionately studying all of the traditional movement and the crisis.  As for the new rite of baptism, there have occurred doubtful baptisms in the NO from what I understand.  Contact the sspv/cspv and ask them about doubtful baptisms that have occurred in the new rite, because I have heard that they have performed conditional baptisms(in case the NO was invalid).  So, you are really in a tough spot in the rcia with timing and all.  My gut feeling is that you shouldn't get baptized(despite a conservative sounding parish).

    I say this because your inspiration/grace to learn about tradition so early reminds me of when I was confirmed in the NO and was in RCIA.  I received a great grace about a week before being confirmed to learn about the differences between the new and old rite.  It struck me to the core, and I wanted the older rite.  I contacted the nearest traditional indult parish(a college) about two hours away by email asking if I could be confirmed in the old rite there.  They didn't email me back, and I went through with the local NO confirmation rite, and I am almost certain that it was invalid.  I think in my diocese(mahoney/LA) the word was that they were using corn oil to anoint(I learned this when I left the NO years later).  And, that possibly means anointing with GMO corn oil(almost all corn oil these days is GMO).  It is wild; and, there were other things that occurred during and immediately after the rite that send me the signal that it was invalid.  I won't go into detail.  But, it wasn't until a few years later that I saw things clearly and left the NO for the sspx.  Did I waste that initial grace?  I don't know, but I do speculate, because years went by and I turned away from the indult for the NO(it is a common occurrence).  The indult leads to the NO.  So, my gut tells me that you should not get baptized and instead continue learning about tradition while you have the grace.  Because, it is a great great grace that you have received to be introduced to tradition so early.  Don't let the NO take it from you by initiating you into into the heretical melting pot that the v2 church is.   Avoid them.

    Next, valid baptism is one thing, but this doesn't give you a green light to receive communion or attend/participate in the novus ordo mass rite.  Wow, my common catholic sense is kicking in.  Get out of the rcia and the Novus ordo!  Get a rosary,  learn to pray it the traditional way(no luminous mysteries), pray it, and hold on tight.  Get a 1945 st andrews missal, and learn the essential traditional catholic prayers.  Get the catechism of the council of trent by tan books, and read it.  Pray in the morning when you wake and in the evening before you go to bed.   Continue frequenting these forums.  I think this is the best place to learn about the big picture. You are in for quite a journey.  I will be praying for you.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #10 on: March 15, 2015, 11:12:35 PM »
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  • ss116 - here is a link to the traditional catholic (the 1954 rite break off movement from the early sspx) television program free on youtube called "what catholics believe" to teach you about tradition.  It aired years ago on national television, and is really good.  

     https://www.youtube.com/user/WCBOhio
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Matto

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #11 on: March 15, 2015, 11:37:09 PM »
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  • I would suggest that you look into the major traditional Catholic groups to see if any of them offer the sacraments in your area. They are the SSPX the SSPV and the CMRI. Any of them will offer you a valid baptism and will also teach you the true faith (which your local RCIA will not give you). I will pray for you. God bless.
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    Offline SS116

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 08:01:35 AM »
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  • Wow, these responses have been really edifying. I'm starting to get over the initial emotional shock of coming to terms with the heresy of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. It still hurts a lot though.

    Unfortunately the bishop wasn't at the cathedral yesterday, so I did not have a chance to speak with him. I am going to talk to the heads of RCIA this Thursday (if not sooner) to present them with these conflicts I'm having and find out as much as I can about the way things are being done in this diocese.

    To give you guys a little more detailed information, I'm doing all this in the Diocese of Fargo, attending the St. Mary Cathedral. I visited traditio.com to see if there are any locations nearby that I could turn to, and sadly it looks like my options are extremely limited. According to the directory on that site, there are no locations in North Dakota, and the only ones in Minnesota are really far away. St. Mary Cathedral is listed in that directory, but it's labeled with a little red angry face which is used to indicate a highly suspect or invalid Mass that should be avoided.

    So this leads me to the first major question I have: what exactly is required for a valid baptism? I've heard it said that all you really need is water and the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost)." If those things are present, do I have any reason to doubt? Could I get baptized and then refuse the presumably invalid Eucharist?

    What about Confirmation?

    My second major concern is what to do even if I do go forward with this baptism. How do I live my Catholic life? Should I still go to the Latin Mass at the cathedral and just not take communion? What about confession? Who am I supposed to go to for reconciliation?

    On the other hand, if I don't go forward with this baptism, what then? What if I die and I've never been baptized, never taken communion or gone to confession? Should I consider myself in that case baptized by desire? That's an extreme hypothetical, but you just never know what's going to happen. I have rosaries and I can get those books that + PG + recommended and start a more strict prayer regimen.

    This is so hard. I thought I had finally found a family in Christ's Church where I could have fellowship with other Christians, but now I feel like I'm basically alone again. Please pray for me, you guys.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #13 on: March 16, 2015, 09:31:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: SS116
    Wow, these responses have been really edifying. I'm starting to get over the initial emotional shock of coming to terms with the heresy of Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. It still hurts a lot though.

    Unfortunately the bishop wasn't at the cathedral yesterday, so I did not have a chance to speak with him. I am going to talk to the heads of RCIA this Thursday (if not sooner) to present them with these conflicts I'm having and find out as much as I can about the way things are being done in this diocese.

    To give you guys a little more detailed information, I'm doing all this in the Diocese of Fargo, attending the St. Mary Cathedral. I visited traditio.com to see if there are any locations nearby that I could turn to, and sadly it looks like my options are extremely limited. According to the directory on that site, there are no locations in North Dakota, and the only ones in Minnesota are really far away. St. Mary Cathedral is listed in that directory, but it's labeled with a little red angry face which is used to indicate a highly suspect or invalid Mass that should be avoided.

    So this leads me to the first major question I have: what exactly is required for a valid baptism? I've heard it said that all you really need is water and the words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost)." If those things are present, do I have any reason to doubt? Could I get baptized and then refuse the presumably invalid Eucharist?

    What about Confirmation?

    My second major concern is what to do even if I do go forward with this baptism. How do I live my Catholic life? Should I still go to the Latin Mass at the cathedral and just not take communion? What about confession? Who am I supposed to go to for reconciliation?

    On the other hand, if I don't go forward with this baptism, what then? What if I die and I've never been baptized, never taken communion or gone to confession? Should I consider myself in that case baptized by desire? That's an extreme hypothetical, but you just never know what's going to happen. I have rosaries and I can get those books that + PG + recommended and start a more strict prayer regimen.

    This is so hard. I thought I had finally found a family in Christ's Church where I could have fellowship with other Christians, but now I feel like I'm basically alone again. Please pray for me, you guys.




    If this is this the place you were talking about http://cathedralofstmary.com/ - check these out.

    SSPX approx 140 miles toward the south from St. Mary Cathedral
    BROWERVILLE
    Sacred Heart Novitiate
    320-594-2944
    540 W. 8th Street
    Sunday 7:30am
    Daily 7:15am

    SSPX approx 78 miles north from St. Mary Cathedral
    CROOKSTON
    Our Lady of Sorrows Chapel
    701-775-6528
    600 E. Roberts Street
    Sunday 2:00pm

    You should call one of these chapels rather than continue on with the novus ordo.





    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline SS116

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    Im new and I have a question about baptism.
    « Reply #14 on: March 16, 2015, 11:32:16 AM »
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  • Thanks, Stubborn. I have gotten in touch with someone at the chapel in Crookston and I left a message for someone at a CMRI church in St. Cloud. I don't have a car, so travel is difficult for me, but maybe something can be worked out at least for baptism.

    It's frustrating to think that I might have to be re-catechized, but if God wills it, I submit. I do feel like I'm being guided to traditional Catholicism and sedevacantism. I'm going to continue my research, but if anyone has anything to say with regard to the questions I posed in my last post, I am eager to know what you have to say.

     

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