Author Topic: If Darwinian evolution is true, you should not exist. (Read 1924 times)

Jehanne · « **on:** January 18, 2010, 06:51:16 AM »

Consider the probabilities? How many sperm did your dad produce during his lifetime? How many eggs did mom have? If you are the result of one egg and one sperm, then out of the trillions of spermatoza that your dad made and the thousands of eggs that your mom had, we are already way beyond the odds of wining the lottery. Now, consider your parents, your grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. Of course, human population decreases as we go back in time, so, eventually, cousins are having sex with other cousins.

To simplify things, I could have been "Dawn" but, instead, I was "Don." That's a 50-50 probability, roughly. No dig deal, but apply the same logic to your father, and his father, and his father, and his father. It is like flipping a coin 100,000 times or more and getting all heads! If your dad (or his dad or his dad or his dad, etc.) had been "Tammy" instead of "Tom," you would not exist.

This is why Dawkins says (paraphrasing), "It some dinosaur had sneezed next to another one, we would not exist." If evolution is true, you should not exist. The probability of you existing is infinitesimal.

Vandaler · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2010, 07:04:41 AM »

This makes precious little sense to me since, if evolution is true, you can apply the reasoning to any outcome it produces and claim it should not be based on the odds all the while knowing that there must be at least one outcome that is possible.

It's more reasonable to simply say, accurately, that things might very well be different, but that would then be the new reality which makes no sense to challenge.

Or perhaps I am simply not getting it.

Jehanne · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2010, 08:14:44 AM »

Quote from: Vandaler

This makes precious little sense to me since, if evolution is true, you can apply the reasoning to any outcome it produces and claim it should not be based on the odds all the while knowing that there must be at least one outcome that is possible.

But, that's my point. We live in one Universe, and in that Universe, the probability of you and I existing is so, so very small that it is, for all practical purposes, zero. The argument that I am making goes beyond the fine-tuning argument of the Universe.

Vandaler · « **Reply #3 on:** January 19, 2010, 04:29:46 PM »

I still don't get it sorry.

Practically zero, and zero are not the same thing, especially when there is an infinity amount of incredibly similar worlds that are possible.

Maybe it would help if you would draw out more clearly what this argument supports as a conclusion?

Vandaler · « **Reply #4 on:** January 19, 2010, 04:31:52 PM »

I am also confused as to why you apply this to evolution.

Even if you accept creationism, our current world is just as unlikely then if we rather came about from evolution.

Dulcamara · « **Reply #5 on:** January 19, 2010, 06:16:03 PM »

Quote from: Vandaler

I am also confused as to why you apply this to evolution.

Even if you accept creationism, our current world is just as unlikely then if we rather came about from evolution.

It's because everything in this life is so extremely "convenient" (read "unlikely") that we can cite this very thing as an argument for God's existence. The possibilities of the whole setup called Earth taking place are... well... astronomically small. ( :wink: )

Yes, the insane odds are a great argument against darwin's world that supposedly came up at random, and unguided, but... I'm not sure where you're going with this, exactly.

Anyhow, there are an increasingly greater number of very moving, very concise arguments against Darwin and for God. That evolution is merely "really improbable" is not even really the king of the hill (of the arguments) anymore. The fact that so many things evolution uses to explain everything, have recently been proven so undeniably false... THAT'S some pretty moving stuff. Now you can say that, in addition to it being stupidly improbable (and thus according to sanity and reason, more or less impossible), it also has more holes punched through it by concrete evidence than there are in your average sponge.

:boxer:

But it's really fun to watch the sinking ship of fools go down!

Jehanne · « **Reply #6 on:** January 19, 2010, 07:22:19 PM »

Quote from: Vandaler

I still don't get it sorry.

Practically zero, and zero are not the same thing, especially when there is an infinity amount of incredibly similar worlds that are possible.

Maybe it would help if you would draw out more clearly what this argument supports as a conclusion?

Infinite? Can actual infinities exist in Nature? So far as science knows, we live in one Universe, not many and not an infinite. Multiple the vast improbability of your existence by the vast improbability of the fine-tuning of this one Universe and I hope that you see my point. If there are an infinite number of Universes, then there are an infinite number of "you's" and "me's." True?

Vandaler · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2010, 07:49:41 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Infinite? Can actual infinities exist in Nature? So far as science knows, we live in one Universe, not many and not an infinite. Multiple the vast improbability of your existence by the vast improbability of the fine-tuning of this one Universe and I hope that you see my point. If there are an infinite number of Universes, then there are an infinite number of "you's" and "me's." True?

There is no need to get distracted with my use of the word infinite when I meant a great many.

I still see this argument equally against creation then against evolution since the odds of attaining our world (me as I am now precisely) is also insanely improbable if we were created.

CM · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2010, 09:12:47 PM »

Quote

But it's really fun to watch the sinking ship of fools go down!

Not fun. Saddening. Especially when some of the fools are otherwise so intelligent.

Jehanne · « **Reply #9 on:** January 20, 2010, 07:11:38 AM »

Quote from: Vandaler

Quote from: Jehanne
Infinite? Can actual infinities exist in Nature? So far as science knows, we live in one Universe, not many and not an infinite. Multiple the vast improbability of your existence by the vast improbability of the fine-tuning of this one Universe and I hope that you see my point. If there are an infinite number of Universes, then there are an infinite number of "you's" and "me's." True?

There is no need to get distracted with my use of the word infinite when I meant a great many.

I still see this argument equally against creation then against evolution since the odds of attaining our world (me as I am now precisely) is also insanely improbable if we were created.

Why would you say that our World is "improbable"? Is God becoming Man improbable? Or, was that event the will of the One and Triune God? You exist and our World exists because God exists and your existence, in particular, is the result of God allowing you to be born as opposed to someone else being born. To me, this is a far, far more satisfying explanation than saying that our existence is the result of blind forces interacting with each other, matter and energy, through the mechanism of random chance.

Jehanne · « **Reply #10 on:** January 20, 2010, 07:13:00 AM »

Quote from: CM

Quote
But it's really fun to watch the sinking ship of fools go down!

Not fun. Saddening. Especially when some of the fools are otherwise so intelligent.

David, what exactly is your perspective on this?

CM · « **Reply #11 on:** January 20, 2010, 07:28:03 AM »

My perspective is this: You and Dulcamara are both much more intelligent than I am, I can tell. And yet you fail to reject the heretic Ratzinger for what he really is.

Vandaler · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2010, 12:07:54 PM »

Quote from: Jehanne

Why would you say that our World is "improbable"?

I am not saying this, your argument is.

Quote from: Jehanne

Consider the probabilities? How many sperm did your dad produce during his lifetime? How many eggs did mom have? If you are the result of one egg and one sperm, then out of the trillions of spermatoza that your dad made and the thousands of eggs that your mom had, we are already way beyond the odds of wining the lottery. Now, consider your parents, your grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. Of course, human population decreases as we go back in time, so, eventually, cousins are having sex with other cousins.

To simplify things, I could have been "Dawn" but, instead, I was "Don." That's a 50-50 probability, roughly. No dig deal, but apply the same logic to your father, and his father, and his father, and his father. It is like flipping a coin 100,000 times or more and getting all heads! If your dad (or his dad or his dad or his dad, etc.) had been "Tammy" instead of "Tom," you would not exist.

There is nothing in this argument that differentiate Evolution with Creationism. In both cases, it describes the low probability of both systems to produce very specific result at the end of the string of many generations.

Your argument is really only effective in arguing for some kind of predestination through a guiding hand and this only if, our current existence the way it is right now is something that is deemed necessary at all cost, something which I do not agree with.

To me, everything could be totally different and I could not exist and it's fine by me. The fact that I exist the way I am now needs not to be justified, or I fail to see why that is necessary.

Jehanne · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2010, 04:40:39 PM »

Quote from: Vandaler

Quote from: Jehanne
Why would you say that our World is "improbable"?

I am not saying this, your argument is.

Quote from: Jehanne
Consider the probabilities? How many sperm did your dad produce during his lifetime? How many eggs did mom have? If you are the result of one egg and one sperm, then out of the trillions of spermatoza that your dad made and the thousands of eggs that your mom had, we are already way beyond the odds of wining the lottery. Now, consider your parents, your grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. Of course, human population decreases as we go back in time, so, eventually, cousins are having sex with other cousins.

To simplify things, I could have been "Dawn" but, instead, I was "Don." That's a 50-50 probability, roughly. No dig deal, but apply the same logic to your father, and his father, and his father, and his father. It is like flipping a coin 100,000 times or more and getting all heads! If your dad (or his dad or his dad or his dad, etc.) had been "Tammy" instead of "Tom," you would not exist.

There is nothing in this argument that differentiate Evolution with Creationism. In both cases, it describes the low probability of both systems to produce very specific result at the end of the string of many generations.

Your argument is really only effective in arguing for some kind of predestination through a guiding hand and this only if, our current existence the way it is right now is something that is deemed necessary at all cost, something which I do not agree with.

To me, everything could be totally different and I could not exist and it's fine by me. The fact that I exist the way I am now needs not to be justified, or I fail to see why that is necessary.

I would offer evidence of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. Was that a "chance" event? And, if God became man through the will of the One and Triune God, is my existence any less "predestined"?

Lybus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 20, 2010, 05:05:47 PM »

I am no friend of the Theory of Evolution, but I am having a difficulty seeing your argument myself.

I don't see exactly how your points draw up a conclusion for or against evolution. What you seem to be saying, actually, is that there is an almost infinitely low chance that I would have ended up the way I was, and my father would have ended up the way he was, and my grandfather, etc. Your line of thought would certainly make you appreciate just how lucky you are to be alive. For instance, if I had a child, I could try and guess that he would have blonde hair, blue eyes, a quirky personality, a passion for liquor, a temper, and would then have his own daughter that would be dark skinned, be obese, become the first US president, etc. For me to make these predictions would put it at odds to the lottery, but yea.
All i can really see about this is that we should just thank God that we are alive as we are, because ultimately our chances of being as we are are quite low; had my parents done something even slightly different, I would be someone else; born without a leg or something. It doesn't seem to connect to whether evolution is true or not.

You are speaking of a situation in which DNA and Man already exist, so the way in which you are born is random, but there will always be someone born, whether he have black or blonde hair, etc. Whether or not the universe happened by chance is a different matter entirely.

The probability that the universe exists of its own accord is unlikely; I agree with that, and I'm sure there's no need to say anything on it. It's just that your argument doesn't seem to be drawing the conclusion that it was intended to.