The Faith naturally tends to invigorate the intellect, as well as the heart.  The matters of Faith, and those related to them, are enormously important.  It is no surprise that discussions have been intense over the years, even when all is kept well within the bounds of charity.  God's glory and our eternal interests are at stake.

Even in peaceful days, ALL that goes on until the end of time is part of a WAR -- and we are, in a sense, both the combatants AND the prize.  Jesus already paid the price for us, but the demons seek to snatch us away.  "The life of man upon earth is a warfare."  Yes, our main enemy looks back at us in the mirror every morning, but there are others all around who do not sleep, and many men who have been unduly influenced by them.

I think you're on to something there, Alexandria.  It is critically important that we be right, our very soul depends upon it.  What isn't right is that we might be able to argue our way into the concession that we are right.  But then maybe that's not what we are doing.  Maybe we're putting up our best argument in the belief that either it is right or someone will be forced to give us the quintessential argument which will put us on the right road.  Must ponder this.

The last thing the SSPX wants is to be associated with us.  Go to any other forum on the internet, even the other SSPX one, and you'll soon find out how sedes are treated and regarded...the off-scouring of the earth.

I am open always to the possibility that I am wrong because I have seen too much of how others who are convinced that they are right act.  I will listen to any reasonable person and read anything.  But ridicule, insults and a condescending attitude will get you nowhere with me.  

There is still no pope leading any of us.  Only the NO has a pope they feel they can follow....and where is he leading them?  

This clique-ism is stupid.  No one enters heaven without humility, charity and a cross.  Catholics should feel blessed, not arrogant.  There but for the grace of God, go I.

Cliques are an evil that should be rubbed out.

There is still no pope leading any of us.  Only the NO has a pope they feel they can follow....and where is he leading them?  

This clique-ism is stupid.  No one enters heaven without humility, charity and a cross.  Catholics should feel blessed, not arrogant.  There but for the grace of God, go I.

Hii Trinity, I am new to this forum. I consider myself a Traditionalist Catholic, but I have been away from my Faith for some time, and am just finding my way back.

Looking for a good Traditional Catholic site, like this one, I can see that many, many Catholics do not recognise Benedict as Pope. Sorry if I am coming across as niaive, I am very much against Vatican 2 and felt that JP2 was 'a bridge too far', but I have always felt that Benedict, though he falls greatly short of what I would like to see in a Traditionalist, is he not a 'traditionalist' with a small 't'? What I mean is, is Benedict not at least taking the first tiny steps in moving our Church back in the right direction, with liberating the use of Latin, being pro-european culture, trying to repair relations with SSPX and other traditionalists, reaffirming our beliefs on abortion, contraception etc?

As I said, I have been away for some time, and am largely ignorant of what Benedict really stands for, but on the surface he does seem to me to be an order of magnitude preferable to JP2. I'm sure there is a long list of things I should know, and would be grateful if someone would fill me in on what Bendict's major shortcomings are.

My thoughts on this though, are that an imperfect Pope, as long as he is not teaching error, is better than no Pope. God uses the most imperfect and 'cracked' vessels readily to hand, in his work. What are the fruits of the belief that we have no Pope? Who benefits from that view? I don't mean to offend anyone here as I am asking these questions simply out of the spirit of wishing to learn, but to me, it is a very dangerous prospect to be leaderless, to choose no leader, or no authority, over an imperfect one.

Anyway, apologies for rambling on my first post, but any answer or views on this would be very much appreciated.

Yours in Christ,

DV

You're cool, Deusvult.  I'm sede because I don't believe the vicar of Christ can do the things these 'popes' have been doing and teach the things they've been teaching.  If one believes in the indefectibity of God, they can't believe in V 2.  The way I see it, the Holy Ghost led the Church one way for nearly 2000 years.  Then over the course of a council, turned and went a different direction.  Different direction means different management to me.

I fear their errors and want no part of them.  I don't see it as mere imperfection, but as a very dangerous misleading.  What really tore me up was their refusal to let us kneel to Jesus in communion.  I could not reconcile that.

I understand, and what you say makes perfect sense.

What upsets me almost as much as that is how they have tried to marginalize our beloved Mary. It speaks to the same petty, small-minded, egotistical mentality.

In the end, history will give the full picture I guess.

What I am hoping is that, if we are lucky, it will turn out that actually, our beloved Church was a bit like a monumental ocean liner in that a mere council could not steer it off a course which had been laid in and travelled for over two thousand years. I am hoping that what we will actually see in the end, is that those crazies who dominated V2, actually jumped overboard, and although they thought the rest of the Church followed them, that in fact the rest of the Church didn't follow them. Maybe we will see that the rest of the Church slowly, but surely, resumed it's original course. It will not be long before that generation of 1960's and 70's priests who were infected with the V2 madness, dies out. Our slow, cuмbersome ocean liner of a Church may well eventually steer back onto it's original course again now their interference is on the wane.

Unltimately, isn't it our beloved Christ who is at the helm? Could anyone ever, really take away His Bride? Also, despite the madness; the doctrine of the Church has still not changed. Yes there has been abuse and error, but our Church stands for the same things today as always. Anti-abortion, anti-contraception, anti-euthanasia, anti-islam, celibate priesthood, anti-gαy, pro-family. I think it is safe to say that the RCC almost stands alone and has successfully stuck to it's guns on these issues while the rest of the world, without exception, caved right in, including most other so-called 'Christian' denominations.

What I am trying to say that is I hope it turns out that all of the Vatican 2 madness that we fear so much, will turn out to have been superficial. Much of it was appearance only, none the less damaging for that, but prone to a short lifespan exactly because of it's superficial nature. Whereas our core beliefs and traditions have not only survived the assault, but there are signs that traditionalism may yet be on the ascendent again in our Church. The Great Men who guided our Church throughout most of it's history, knew how to build a doctrine to last against an evil world!

Time will tell I guess.

I don't think Benedict is quite the Traditionalist hero we need, but I do think he is probably an early, tentative sign of movement in the direction of light, away from the darkness.

Apologies again for rambling. To me, our Church is like a vast, slow moving glacier. And what was Vatican 2? Maybe a forest fire that melted some of the ice, but the glacier will always win in the end (I hope :) ).

Yours In Christ,

DV