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Author Topic: Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two  (Read 679 times)

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Offline Stephen Francis

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Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
« on: September 01, 2013, 08:15:12 AM »
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  • "The Church isn't one group or another. It's everybody who has faith in Jesus. There's no perfect Church because there's no perfect people. Even if the Church used to all have the same teachings, people are sinners and they went into error and the Reformation changed that. There's errors in the other churches, too, but that doesn't mean they're all wrong."

    Discuss.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar


    Offline Matto

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #1 on: September 01, 2013, 03:11:38 PM »
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  • Why do you want to talk about these heresies?
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Stephen Francis

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #2 on: September 01, 2013, 03:27:31 PM »
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  • Because unlike most other people on here who have other trads to be with, the kind of attitude I quoted above is all around me. That sort of thing is what I hear every day.

    I'm trying to encourage discussion of the common excuses and falsehoods that non-Catholics hold because I'd like to be able to answer people in a well-rounded and mature way.
    This evil of heresy spreads itself. The doctrines of godliness are overturned; the rules of the Church are in confusion; the ambition of the unprincipled seizes upon places of authority; and the chief seat [the Papacy] is now openly proposed as a rewar

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #3 on: September 01, 2013, 05:37:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stephen Francis
    "The Church isn't one group or another. It's everybody who has faith in Jesus. There's no perfect Church because there's no perfect people. Even if the Church used to all have the same teachings, people are sinners and they went into error and the Reformation changed that. There's errors in the other churches, too, but that doesn't mean they're all wrong."


    Just off the top of my head, these notions deny the very nature of Divine Revelation as recorded in the Sacred Scriptures.

    Of all the progeny of Adam, Sem alone together with his descendants preserved true religion ---> when the Nephilim contaminated mankind, Noe alone was found to be "perfect in his generations" and he and his family were saved from the Deluge ---> of the postdiluvian peoples scattered about after the Tower of Babel, God chooses Abraham ---> of his children, Isaac is chosen as the son of promise ---> then the same happens with Jacob ---> Moses is later chosen as the Legislator for the Jєωs ---> In Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy various precepts and ceremonial laws are promulgated to make sure the Jєωs observe all the types that prefigure the coming Redeemer ---> the Prophets are sent by God to rebuke the idolatrous Jєωs before and after the Babylonian Captivity ---> the promised Daughter of Adam who would crush the head of the serpent is born, the Immaculate Conception, fore-chosen to be the Virgin Mother of God ---> Our Lord chooses twelve Apostles (Judas reprobates himself but St. Matthias is chosen in his stead, restoring the twelve; and later St. Paul is chosen by Our Lord as the "Vessel of Election"): the Apostolic College under the supremacy of St. Peter are the foundation of the one Church established by Christ, which is to both fulfill and efface the ancient ѕуηαgσgυє ---> throughout the Acts of the Apostles, the ministries of the Apostles is shown to be the continuation of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ---> in the Apocalypse of St. John, the history and future of the same Church is revealed, and the Holy Mother Church emerges triumphant together with Our Lord.

    So, from the beginning God intended: 1) for His Divine Revelation to be made in a public and visible manner, as seen ultimately in the ѕуηαgσgυє and after Our Lord fulfilled the Scriptures in the Church; 2) to have a specific number of elect who would have been sifted continuously from Adam's progeny to the remnant of Jєωs who were awaiting the advent of Our Lord, and then to the Church who would preach the Gospel to the Gentiles; 3) only one economy of salvation was to exist, not a concurrent or simultaneous plurality of economies, meaning only one Church is to be the one established by Christ and to have been assured perpetuity and infallible authority.

    It is ridiculous to assert that God intended for His Divine Revelation to be arbitrated by the whim and fancy of fallible and corruptible individuals who would contradict one another and ultimately undermine the very nature of Divine Revelation: only one Church was to be especially forechosen to be guided by the Holy Ghost to preserve the deposit of the faith. This Church is the Catholic Church.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #4 on: September 01, 2013, 05:48:05 PM »
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  • Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)


    Offline TKGS

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #5 on: September 01, 2013, 07:03:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stephen Francis
    "The Church isn't one group or another. It's everybody who has faith in Jesus.


    This is not correct.  The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.  Only the Holy Roman Catholic Church completely fulfills this definition.  While I accept that there is a possibility that there could be people who have true faith in Jesus and who may achieve salvation (i.e., Baptism of Desire according to the mind of the Church), though this group is exceedingly small, they are not actually incorporated into the Church unless, through miraculous means, they find themselves members of the Church Suffering.

    Quote from: Stephen Francis
    There's no perfect Church because there's no perfect people.


    A non-perfect Church would not be Holy.  Of course there is a perfect Church.  The problem we face today is that an apostate sect has co-opted the name of that perfect Church and stolen its property.

    Quote from: Stephen Francis
    Even if the Church used to all have the same teachings, people are sinners and they went into error and the Reformation changed that.


    The first part is a given.  The Church continues to have the same teachings as it has always had.  People are indeed sinners and have gone into error.  The so-called Reformation, really the Revolution, only changed the errors and multiplied them each sect splitting over increasingly fractured errors.

    Quote from: Stephen Francis
    There's errors in the other churches, too, but that doesn't mean they're all wrong.


    This is just plain silly-talk.  Error is, by its very definition, wrong.  Every sect, be it Protestant, Jєωιѕн, Islamic, Hindu, Wiccan, Buddhist, Sikh, Orthodox, Conciliar catholic, etc., etc., etc., is founded upon error and is, therefore, wrong in at least one critical doctrine of the faith.

    It would be impossible to truly have a discussion with anyone who makes the final statement because that individual simply will not accept the self-evident truth that error is, by its nature, wrong.

    Offline songbird

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #6 on: September 01, 2013, 07:16:41 PM »
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  • If you say that you are surrounded by these heresies, then you are in bad company.  If you hear it and can not answer, again you are in wrong company for if you were in the Church that Christ founded, you would have the answers or rebuttals to most of these sayings.  

    When statements are made in this fashion, it is the trail of the diabolical, masons.  To cause confusion.

    The term "church" was first used by Jesus Christ.  Therefore, there is a True Church.   In the Bible: everyone who says "Lord, Lord, is not saved".  

    It is very dangerous to put your soul around these statements.  ANd if you do, you best be able to have truth to answer for yourself.  You are then in the area of called, "defending the FAITH".  

    If you desire to defend your faith, get true, good reading material of the true catholic church.

    Don't subject yourself to the wrong company, and educate yourself.

    Offline Frances

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    Hypothesis for discussion, Number Two
    « Reply #7 on: September 02, 2013, 07:49:31 PM »
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  •  :thinking:
    Many of us have no choice but to be surrounded by heretics and pagans.  If one is in the world, there is no avoiding them entirely.  They are one's family, coworkers, neighbours.  
    In a nutshell, God founded only ONE Church, not many, and simply believing in Jesus doesn't get a person into Heaven.  The devil believes in Jesus!  So he's going to Heaven?  
    StephenFrancis, if the people of whom you speak are willing to honestly investigate the claims of the Catholic Church, they will listen to you and read materials you give them.  IME, such persons are rare.  Most say, "Don't confuse me with the Truth.  I've made up my mind.". With these, it is best to keep your silence.
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.