Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: PaulLuke on July 31, 2012, 04:24:01 PM
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Let's say that at some time in the future our prayers are answered and the Holy Ghost inspires the pope (either Benedict XVI or, much more likely, a future one) that the Novus Ordo needs to be dispensed with and the Traditional Latin Mass made the "Ordinary Form" (I know none of us here consider the TLM to be the Extraordinary Form). How do you envision it being brought back?
One barrier that would exist is architectural. The very vast majority of post-V2 churches have been built with the NO in mind, meaning displaced tabernacle, no 3 steps up to the altar, no communion rail, etc, not to mention the deplorable lack of other Catholic figures and images.
In addition, most priests that have come along since V2 know next to nothing about Latin, and so they would all need to be trained accordingly. The laity would similarly have to be trained in the proper Latin responses, as well as the Missal and proper Mass etiquette/dress.
Also, I don't know if the TLM could just be switched to all of a sudden for many people (especially less devout Catholics). I feel like changing the prayers back (at least to English before Latin, maybe) would be easiest, but it would take time for everyone to accept Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.
Thoughts?
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I've wondered about this too. It was hard enough for me to learn the NO mass, and Im very slowly starting to learn the latin mass. Perhaps each church could offer s general catechism class for a half hour before each mass to help teach the proper responses etc. Would be a good way to get people more involved maybe.
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Abrogate the Novus Ordo, burn every missal, like they tried to do with the TLM. :)
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I think it will be gradual and slow. Perhaps up to 100 years. Perhaps after another council. There will probably be some vernacular options, like the readings, and perhaps some minor revisions to the Order of the Mass. There will be some critical mass, and then it will come. In the mean time the NO will be getting more and more traditional in its celebration (ad orientem, etc.), and then the plug will be pulled. I don't see anything abrupt. Too many people would be unprepared to come back to the TLM. The ground needs to be watered first. This may not satisfy some, but I think it is the most plausible scenario, and the one I think Pope Benedict envisions, at least in part.
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Let's say that at some time in the future our prayers are answered and the Holy Ghost inspires the pope (either Benedict XVI or, much more likely, a future one) that the Novus Ordo needs to be dispensed with and the Traditional Latin Mass made the "Ordinary Form" (I know none of us here consider the TLM to be the Extraordinary Form). How do you envision it being brought back?
One barrier that would exist is architectural. The very vast majority of post-V2 churches have been built with the NO in mind, meaning displaced tabernacle, no 3 steps up to the altar, no communion rail, etc, not to mention the deplorable lack of other Catholic figures and images.
In addition, most priests that have come along since V2 know next to nothing about Latin, and so they would all need to be trained accordingly. The laity would similarly have to be trained in the proper Latin responses, as well as the Missal and proper Mass etiquette/dress.
Also, I don't know if the TLM could just be switched to all of a sudden for many people (especially less devout Catholics). I feel like changing the prayers back (at least to English before Latin, maybe) would be easiest, but it would take time for everyone to accept Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.
Thoughts?
Since 7 year old Child can use a Latin to English Missal - its about as easy as a single Papal Decree. As for the Other 6 Sacraments including Holy Orders - they too would have to be changed back and the N O Priests possibly conditionally ordained.
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
Ouch. Well, maybe not in our lifetime, but I don't really think it is realistic to call a protestantized liturgical celebration the 'Ordinary Form' and call the mass that has existed for 2000 years, made the saints of The Church, and which is completely free of protestantization, the Extraordinary Form- that's what I would call an, oxy-moron. Do you not think you do a disservice to, and dishonor, it by calling it so?
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Also my friend, do you not think the men who decided to distinguish between the Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo used these new terms, OF and EF, with an intent that is less than holy?
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
I just thought about something, its a bit off topic, but I hope you don't mind. Do you remember telling us about the Roman bishop/cardinal back east who tried to, essentially, eliminate and assimilate the Byzantines rite and their practices by making them more Roman and the disdain your priest-son (I believe it was him, but forgive me if I'm off) and his brother priests felt?
I wonder if you think that bishop/ cardinal decided to impose a similar practice of calling the Byzantine rite of the mass extraordinary, if your son and his fellow brother priests would have gone along with it.
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
Ouch. Well, maybe not in our lifetime, but I don't really think it is realistic to call a protestantized liturgical celebration the 'Ordinary Form' and call the mass that has existed for 2000 years, made the saints of The Church, and which is completely free of protestantization, the Extraordinary Form- that's what I would call an, oxy-moron. Do you not think you do a disservice to, and dishonor, it by calling it so?
I generally call it the Traditional Latin Mass, which I thing is both more accurate and more respectful.
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Abrogate the Novus Ordo, burn every missal, like they tried to do with the TLM.
I agree.
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
I just thought about something, its a bit off topic, but I hope you don't mind. Do you remember telling us about the Roman bishop/cardinal back east who tried to, essentially, eliminate and assimilate the Byzantines rite and their practices by making them more Roman and the disdain your priest-son (I believe it was him, but forgive me if I'm off) and his brother priests felt?
I wonder if you think that bishop/ cardinal decided to impose a similar practice of calling the Byzantine rite of the mass extraordinary, if your son and his fellow brother priests would have gone along with it.
I think they would laugh and ignore something that silly.
The bishop in question was not a Latin Rite bishop. He was the Byzantine eparch of Pittsburgh, Nicholas Elko. He seemed to think that Latin rite practice was really Catholic, and that he had to make the Byzantine rite more like the Latin to make it more Catholic. To be fair, whoever, the Latinizations he imposed were not of the NO variety. They would have been considered, rightly, traditional Latin rite practices.
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Let's say that at some time in the future our prayers are answered and the Holy Ghost inspires the pope (either Benedict XVI or, much more likely, a future one) that the Novus Ordo needs to be dispensed with and the Traditional Latin Mass made the "Ordinary Form" (I know none of us here consider the TLM to be the Extraordinary Form). How do you envision it being brought back?
One barrier that would exist is architectural. The very vast majority of post-V2 churches have been built with the NO in mind, meaning displaced tabernacle, no 3 steps up to the altar, no communion rail, etc, not to mention the deplorable lack of other Catholic figures and images.
In addition, most priests that have come along since V2 know next to nothing about Latin, and so they would all need to be trained accordingly. The laity would similarly have to be trained in the proper Latin responses, as well as the Missal and proper Mass etiquette/dress.
Also, I don't know if the TLM could just be switched to all of a sudden for many people (especially less devout Catholics). I feel like changing the prayers back (at least to English before Latin, maybe) would be easiest, but it would take time for everyone to accept Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.
Thoughts?
There is no way that the NO can coexist with the TLM - as such, the mockery of the TLM would necessarily need to be flushed down the toilet and into the sewer from whence it came and this, along with the reasons for it's flushing, would need to be proclaimed to the entire world from the pope.
There is simply no other alternative.
To put it another way, in the words (writing) of Fr. Wathen, here is a partial snip from his "Who Shall Ascend?................................
A. What Must Be Done
In view of the great aberration of the Conciliar Religion, the grave disorders which rack the Mystical Body of Christ, and the long sorrow of the Catholic faithful, we are confronted with the question, what must be done in order that a general restoration of the Church might be brought about? Were it possible, we would propose to His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, the following list of steps which need to be taken immediately. No doubt, many might consider the very idea preposterous. Be that as it may, it is presented here as a kind of summation of the seriousness of the Church's present state, and the momentous reform which we may pray God, will sooner or later be undertaken.
1. The offering of the Novus Ordo Missae should be forbidden immediately and for all time to come.
2. It should be commanded that, henceforth, Sacraments in the Roman Rite are to be administered according to rites prescribed prior to the Second Vatican Council.
3. Priests should be ordered to consume, without ceremony, all hosts putatively consecrated at the Novus Ordo Missae.
4. No liturgical act, nor any other religious function should be allowed in churches, oratories, etc... until these places have been properly reconciled to Catholic worship, according to the norms of the Code of Canon Law and the Roman Ritual.
5. "New Mass priests" should be forbidden to attempt the administration of any Sacraments, until they have been duly absolved for their infidelities and acts of sacrilege. Before such absolution can be given, it must be ascertained that such priests are validly ordained, that they believe in the Catholic religion, and truly and willingly submit to the authority of the Roman Church.
6. Priests should be permitted to resume the saying of the True Mass, i.e., that of the Missale Romanum, only after they have confessed their infidelity to it and to our holy Faith. Those who have never said the True Mass should be allowed to do so only after they have satisfied their ordinaries, or religious superiors, that they are able to do so properly.
7. Priests should not be permitted to accept Mass intentions or stipends for the immediate future. Many millions of Masses will have to be offered to fulfill the intentions of those whose requests were not fulfilled by the Novus Ordo Missae.
8. All priests of orthodox faith and sufficient mental and physical health should be called out of retirement.
9. The laity who have taken up with the Conciliarist religion and who have attended the Novus Ordo Missae should be required to confess these sins before being allowed to receive Holy Communion. Those who have been acting as lay ministers, eucharistic ministers, etc. should be forbidden to do so again.
10. All ordinations to the priesthood and consecrations to the episcopacy should be suspended indefinitely.
11. Priests should not be allowed to preach or perform any other pastoral duties, until they have recited publicly and before the tabernacle, wherein is the true Blessed Eucharist, the Profession of Faith and the Oath against Modernism (in its unabridged form), and until they pronounce their assent to the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius the IX. Those who cannot or will not do this for any reason, should be allowed to return to the lay state.
12. All who have the obligation should be required to resume the recitation of the Roman Breviary. This obligation should henceforth bind under the pain of mortal sin.
13. All clerics of whatever rank or office should be commanded to suspend the exercise of their jurisdiction, until they have been properly reconciled to the Church. Until then, all should be made to understand that their acts are without validity.
14. It should be announced that the decrees of the Second Vatican Council are to be considered of no effect. If and when the next ecuмenical council is convened for a more detailed restoration of the Church, the usefulness of any parts of these decrees can be studied.
15. All acts of all the Congregations of the Roman Curia should be suspended for further review.
16. All treaties, agreements, concessions, promises, etc, whether overt or secret, made with Communist, socialist, or other illegitimate governments should be declared non-operative, null and void. These governments should be condemned by name. Masses and other prayers for their speedy collapse should be ordered immediately.
17. All agreements, which pertain to religious or theological or ministerial matters, made with non-Catholic church groups should be declared suspended. All who belong to associations which engage in dialogues with such groups should be commanded to withdraw immediately. The affiliation of the Church in non-Catholic institutes, councils, conferences, etc, should be terminated.
18. All clerics who belong to the Communist Party, to any branch or lodge of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, or to any other secret society, should be required to tender their resignations from ecclesiastical office immediately.
19. Ecclesiastical censures imposed upon priests because of their adherence to the orthodox Faith and/or the Mass of the Roman Rite should be acknowledged to have been null and void from their inception. Public notice should be given of this fact.
20. A period of time for Masses and other acts of reparation for the sins, scandals, and sacrileges of the Conciliar era should be designated.
21. The restorative acts listed above, which pertain to the Roman Rite, should be imported on the other Rites of the Church to the extent that this is needful.
22. As soon as possible, a commission of clerics, orthodox in their faith, should be instituted and empowered for the work of the thorough "Cleansing of the Temple."
23. Steps should be taken whereby all the cardinals, bishops, abbots, and other prelates of the Church be assembled in Rome for the official consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Sister Lucia of Fatima should be summoned to Rome for this event, which should be carried out exactly as our Lady of Fatima requested.
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This is never going to happen. Are you a sedevacantist? If so, I can see your arguments. although I vigorously disagree. If you are not, why not?
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I take issue with 23. Sister Lucy died in 2005 and if it is proved that she was an imposter, the real Sister Lucy died years earlier.
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Chapter 12 of Daniel states the continual sacrifice will come to an end. read
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This is never going to happen. Are you a sedevacantist? If so, I can see your arguments. although I vigorously disagree. If you are not, why not?
No, I am not a sede due to Church teaching....................
Decrees of the First Vatican Council (http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecuм20.htm) they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman pontiff
This teaching of Vatican 1 agrees with cuм ex Apostolatus Officio (http://sedevacantist.com/encyclicals/Paul04/cuмex.html) This Constitution teaches: the Roman Pontiff,who is the representative upon earth of God and our God and Lord Jesus Christ, who holds the fulness of power over peoples and kingdoms, who may judge all and be judged by none in this world, may nonetheless be contradicted if he be found to have deviated from the Faith.
Then there is It is the Mass that matters (http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Fr-Altenbach-1974) - well worth listening to!
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I take issue with 23. Sister Lucy died in 2005 and if it is proved that she was an imposter, the real Sister Lucy died years earlier.
"Who shall ascend?" was written in the early 1990s. Sr. Lucy was not yet dead when this was written.
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Chapter 12 of Daniel states the continual sacrifice will come to an end. read
Be careful, Scripture teaches us that Scripture interpreted privately is destructive - please include at least some reference of the Church's interpretation when making such prophetic remarks.
2 Peter 1:20
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
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Why not just wait it out. Year by year attendance at the novus ordus drops.
Mass attendance was 68% of the Catholic population (in the U.S.) before the N.O. was forced on the Catholic world and it has dropped down, as of 2005 or so to 23% or maybe even less. That's a big drop.
What should we do?
We wait.
Let the novus ordites go out of business. Let them sell off the beautiful pre-Vat II churches to pay the legal bills racked up by the buggers.
Besides, the novus ordo is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems in newchurch.
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Chapter 12 of Daniel states the continual sacrifice will come to an end. read
Be careful, Scripture teaches us that Scripture interpreted privately is destructive - please include at least some reference of the Church's interpretation when making such prophetic remarks.
2 Peter 1:20
Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
I know a man who thinks those quotes in II Peter don't apply to him, because he
believes he is a prophet! (I would expect that II Peter iii. 16, "...unstable..."
applies to him!)
Regarding the Mass:
I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
Ouch. Well, maybe not in our lifetime, but I don't really think it is realistic to call a protestantized liturgical celebration the 'Ordinary Form' and call the mass that has existed for 2000 years, made the saints of The Church, and which is completely free of protestantization, the Extraordinary Form- that's what I would call an, oxy-moron. Do you not think you do a disservice to, and dishonor, it by calling it so?
I generally call it the Traditional Latin Mass, which I thing is both more accurate and more respectful.
... I prefer the term, Canonized Traditional Latin Mass.
There are several reasons to use this term, "Canonized." The most important
one is that only the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass can be termed Canonized.
The reason is, that it is the Mass that the Latin Rite receives from antiquity. It has
its foundation in the Apostles, which is proven by archeological finds from Pompei,
where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass were found buried in
volcanic ash since A.D. 79, when Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying the city,
"freezing" it in time. (It was actually quite HOT, but we say "freeze" because time
would seem to have stopped, entombed.)
Therefore, whether the Novus Ordo contiunues or is extinguished, matters
not, inasmuch as it can never be termed "Canonized," as it comes from a bunch
of Protestant ministers in the abominable 1960's, and it has no precedent. It was
entirely made up on the spot, and therefore has no basis in antiquity, none
whatsoever. It might be of historical curiosity because it was spread so widely,
but it is of no religious importance. It has "no value" in regards to religion.
As for "reinstating it," the Canonized Latin Mass can be re-established merely by
using it. It can't happen overnight, but there are a number of priests I know who
have learned how to say Mass in about a month of study. They all say that it
doesn't take long for them to entirely abandon the bad habits they had developed
saying the Novus Ordo liturgy for a time. They say it is very "forgettable."
With a little practice and by saying daily the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass,
it becomes rather second nature in due course.
Overall, this entire detour into novordien nonsense could be looked upon as
a means of purifying the priesthood, a purification sent by God to a world that
had become too worldly. And if we don't take the "hint" pretty soon, we might be
facing a much more physical chastisement to finish off the job............
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The reason is, that it is the Mass that the Latin Rite receives from antiquity. It has
its foundation in the Apostles, which is proven by archeological finds from Pompei,
where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass were found buried in
volcanic ash since A.D. 79, when Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying the city,
"freezing" it in time. (It was actually quite HOT, but we say "freeze" because time
would seem to have stopped, entombed.)
Really? Can you provide evidence for this, and the text? Also the "Canonized Traditional Latin Mass" didn't become Latin until the 3rd century.
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Why not just wait it out. Year by year attendance at the novus ordus drops.
Mass attendance was 68% of the Catholic population (in the U.S.) before the N.O. was forced on the Catholic world and it has dropped down, as of 2005 or so to 23% or maybe even less. That's a big drop.
What should we do?
We wait.
Let the novus ordites go out of business. Let them sell off the beautiful pre-Vat II churches to pay the legal bills racked up by the buggers.
Besides, the novus ordo is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems in newchurch.
I completely agree with that strategy. The best way to combat the Novus Ordo is to BE CATHOLIC Yourself , let them be Novus Ordos if that is what they want to be and watch them fail as they no doubt will.
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If it is the Mass that matters; it goes even more! It is the Precious Blood that matters and it is in ALL the sacraments. If not, then Christ came and spilled His Blood in Vain. Christ's own words to His apostles Matthew 24 Christ refers His apostles to the Prophecy of Daniel.
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
I just thought about something, its a bit off topic, but I hope you don't mind. Do you remember telling us about the Roman bishop/cardinal back east who tried to, essentially, eliminate and assimilate the Byzantines rite and their practices by making them more Roman and the disdain your priest-son (I believe it was him, but forgive me if I'm off) and his brother priests felt?
I wonder if you think that bishop/ cardinal decided to impose a similar practice of calling the Byzantine rite of the mass extraordinary, if your son and his fellow brother priests would have gone along with it.
I think they would laugh and ignore something that silly.
The bishop in question was not a Latin Rite bishop. He was the Byzantine eparch of Pittsburgh, Nicholas Elko. He seemed to think that Latin rite practice was really Catholic, and that he had to make the Byzantine rite more like the Latin to make it more Catholic. To be fair, whoever, the Latinizations he imposed were not of the NO variety. They would have been considered, rightly, traditional Latin rite practices.
Sorry- I should have found your post first, I was going off memory :wink:
But as far as them laughing and thinking it was silly, the only way I can see someone laughing and think it was silly is if 1)you only had to imagine, as we're doing, and 2)if it was simply that bishop doing so. Now imagine the Pope and Byzantine patriarch said the same. A bit more serious, no?
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Why not just wait it out. Year by year attendance at the novus ordus drops.
Mass attendance was 68% of the Catholic population (in the U.S.) before the N.O. was forced on the Catholic world and it has dropped down, as of 2005 or so to 23% or maybe even less. That's a big drop.
What should we do?
We wait.
Let the novus ordites go out of business. Let them sell off the beautiful pre-Vat II churches to pay the legal bills racked up by the buggers.
Besides, the novus ordo is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems in newchurch.
I completely agree with that strategy. The best way to combat the Novus Ordo is to BE CATHOLIC Yourself , let them be Novus Ordos if that is what they want to be and watch them fail as they no doubt will.
Whoa. Feminism rules on this thread! Could men have anything else to do than perform their domestic duties and virtues while waiting for "the miracle" to do all their military duties and virtues for them?
Oh well, when you ladies are done with your knitting, just let us men know so we can turn out the lights for you.
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Why not just wait it out. Year by year attendance at the novus ordus drops.
Mass attendance was 68% of the Catholic population (in the U.S.) before the N.O. was forced on the Catholic world and it has dropped down, as of 2005 or so to 23% or maybe even less. That's a big drop.
What should we do?
We wait.
Let the novus ordites go out of business. Let them sell off the beautiful pre-Vat II churches to pay the legal bills racked up by the buggers.
Besides, the novus ordo is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems in newchurch.
I completely agree with that strategy. The best way to combat the Novus Ordo is to BE CATHOLIC Yourself , let them be Novus Ordos if that is what they want to be and watch them fail as they no doubt will.
Whoa. Feminism rules on this thread! Could men have anything else to do than perform their domestic duties and virtues while waiting for "the miracle" to do all their military duties and virtues for them?
Oh well, when you ladies are done with your knitting, just let us men know so we can turn out the lights for you.
:scared2:
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I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF. I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
I just thought about something, its a bit off topic, but I hope you don't mind. Do you remember telling us about the Roman bishop/cardinal back east who tried to, essentially, eliminate and assimilate the Byzantines rite and their practices by making them more Roman and the disdain your priest-son (I believe it was him, but forgive me if I'm off) and his brother priests felt?
I wonder if you think that bishop/ cardinal decided to impose a similar practice of calling the Byzantine rite of the mass extraordinary, if your son and his fellow brother priests would have gone along with it.
I think they would laugh and ignore something that silly.
The bishop in question was not a Latin Rite bishop. He was the Byzantine eparch of Pittsburgh, Nicholas Elko. He seemed to think that Latin rite practice was really Catholic, and that he had to make the Byzantine rite more like the Latin to make it more Catholic. To be fair, whoever, the Latinizations he imposed were not of the NO variety. They would have been considered, rightly, traditional Latin rite practices.
Sorry- I should have found your post first, I was going off memory :wink:
But as far as them laughing and thinking it was silly, the only way I can see someone laughing and think it was silly is if 1)you only had to imagine, as we're doing, and 2)if it was simply that bishop doing so. Now imagine the Pope and Byzantine patriarch said the same. A bit more serious, no?
Yes, it would be. Fortunately no one has suggested altering any eastern Catholic rite liturgy in anything even remotely like the way the Latin rite liturgy was altered.
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Why not just wait it out. Year by year attendance at the novus ordus drops.
Mass attendance was 68% of the Catholic population (in the U.S.) before the N.O. was forced on the Catholic world and it has dropped down, as of 2005 or so to 23% or maybe even less. That's a big drop.
What should we do?
We wait.
Let the novus ordites go out of business. Let them sell off the beautiful pre-Vat II churches to pay the legal bills racked up by the buggers.
Besides, the novus ordo is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems in newchurch.
I completely agree with that strategy. The best way to combat the Novus Ordo is to BE CATHOLIC Yourself , let them be Novus Ordos if that is what they want to be and watch them fail as they no doubt will.
Whoa. Feminism rules on this thread! Could men have anything else to do than perform their domestic duties and virtues while waiting for "the miracle" to do all their military duties and virtues for them?
Oh well, when you ladies are done with your knitting, just let us men know so we can turn out the lights for you.
Well, that was really rude. :mad:
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The reason is, that it is the Mass that the Latin Rite receives from antiquity. It has
its foundation in the Apostles, which is proven by archeological finds from Pompei,
where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass were found buried in
volcanic ash since A.D. 79, when Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying the city,
"freezing" it in time. (It was actually quite HOT, but we say "freeze" because time
would seem to have stopped, entombed.)
Really? Can you provide evidence for this, and the text? Also the "Canonized Traditional Latin Mass" didn't become Latin until the 3rd century.
Not true. You've been listening to fables. Do you have itching ears?
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@CaptMcQuigg: That is REALLY funny! I have to appreciate your sense of humor.
@Sigismund: Yes, it's true. Rudeness also has its time and place. But thank you for your MALE response. It's a start...
What can be done for the TLM? Seriously, at present, probably join the Syrian Army (the real one run by ROMAN CATHOLICS) and go bag us some modernists (fundamentalists, secularists, Christian, Muslim, they're all modernists in need of bagging). Here we are practically into WWIII with never a time so likely to see the nukes falling on our heads before winter and we advise "waiting it out." Mein dudes: The Novus Ordo will turn us all into radioactive fritters long before we have any chance for "waiting" until evil fades away on its own. Yes, prayer is in order, but also perhaps some determined target practice would be timely too.
Back on planet earth the way the TLM is going to return is when the military men begin to use it and send the modernist scuм running for the exits. As far as the TLM is concerned, the public be damned because when the military has to take over they'll need the TLM and simply break the heads of whatever stands in their way.
Talk about RUDE!
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Why not just wait it out. Year by year attendance at the novus ordus drops.
Mass attendance was 68% of the Catholic population (in the U.S.) before the N.O. was forced on the Catholic world and it has dropped down, as of 2005 or so to 23% or maybe even less. That's a big drop.
What should we do?
We wait.
Let the novus ordites go out of business. Let them sell off the beautiful pre-Vat II churches to pay the legal bills racked up by the buggers.
Besides, the novus ordo is just the tip of the iceberg of the problems in newchurch.
I completely agree with that strategy. The best way to combat the Novus Ordo is to BE CATHOLIC Yourself , let them be Novus Ordos if that is what they want to be and watch them fail as they no doubt will.
Whoa. Feminism rules on this thread! Could men have anything else to do than perform their domestic duties and virtues while waiting for "the miracle" to do all their military duties and virtues for them?
Oh well, when you ladies are done with your knitting, just let us men know so we can turn out the lights for you.
:applause:
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The reason is, that it is the Mass that the Latin Rite receives from antiquity. It has
its foundation in the Apostles, which is proven by archeological finds from Pompei,
where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass were found buried in
volcanic ash since A.D. 79, when Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying the city,
"freezing" it in time. (It was actually quite HOT, but we say "freeze" because time
would seem to have stopped, entombed.)
Really? Can you provide evidence for this, and the text? Also the "Canonized Traditional Latin Mass" didn't become Latin until the 3rd century.
Not true. You've been listening to fables. Do you have itching ears?
Could you just answer my questions? If I am deceived, please enlighten me.
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BrotherFrancis, feminists don't patiently wait for anything. They demand that others change their ways to suit them. An example would be that a feminist would demand not that the Church bring back the Traditional Latin Mass but that the Church start ordaining women or renouncing opposition to abortion.
As for the knitting, remember that knitting involves patience and demonstrates dexterity and skill and, in the end, it creates a thing of beauty and usefulness. :smirk:
Please reread my post. I was referring to the constant shrinkage of the novus ordo but I did not highlight the constant growth of the SSPX and to a smaller extent, the CMRI. The SSPV and the independents are also seeing some growth. During the timeframe of 1970-present it's the novus ordo that has continually seen vocations dry up, parishes close while, correspondingly, the Trad's have seen just the opposite. Consider the SSPX, in 1976 it was just the Archbishop and his small seminary and it's not almost 600 active priests and nearly 200 seminarians.
However, if anyone just wants the TLM added to the menu at their NO parish, just ask the parish priest. Ask him nicely. If he says no, write some letters to the bishop. If that doesn't produce results, call the bishops office. That's one avenue of action.
Besides, isn't demanding that others change for you something the feminists are always doing?
And don't forget that while you are heroicly fighting for the TLM (an honorable active :dwarf:) the pope just appointed a man who seems to deny miracles as the Head of the CDF.
I say we remain aloof from the N.O.
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Just reinstating the TLM won't solve any of the inherent problems of the N.O.
First, Vatican II must be declared null and void. If this doesn't happen, nothing else that follows will be of much use for long.
Guys, the cancerous ideologies and psychological framework that makes up "modernism" and "liberalism" can trace their history back to the 1600's (even further if you want to get all technical :idea:) and during that time the Holy Church continued to be the Holy Church. It wasn't until Vatican II that these ideas became the dominant ideas of the leaders of the church.
The bad ideas that lead men to Hell have always been out there and the bad inclination of man in his fallen nature have always led men to Hell.
We should fully understand that Vatican II put the leash on the big dog (known as modernism), brought it into the Holy Church, removed the leash and let the dog run wild.
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BrotherFrancis, feminists don't patiently wait for anything. They demand that others change their ways to suit them. An example would be that a feminist would demand not that the Church bring back the Traditional Latin Mass but that the Church start ordaining women or renouncing opposition to abortion.
As for the knitting, remember that knitting involves patience and demonstrates dexterity and skill and, in the end, it creates a thing of beauty and usefulness. :smirk:
Please reread my post. I was referring to the constant shrinkage of the novus ordo but I did not highlight the constant growth of the SSPX and to a smaller extent, the CMRI. The SSPV and the independents are also seeing some growth. During the timeframe of 1970-present it's the novus ordo that has continually seen vocations dry up, parishes close while, correspondingly, the Trad's have seen just the opposite. Consider the SSPX, in 1976 it was just the Archbishop and his small seminary and it's not almost 600 active priests and nearly 200 seminarians.
However, if anyone just wants the TLM added to the menu at their NO parish, just ask the parish priest. Ask him nicely. If he says no, write some letters to the bishop. If that doesn't produce results, call the bishops office. That's one avenue of action.
Besides, isn't demanding that others change for you something the feminists are always doing?
And don't forget that while you are heroicly fighting for the TLM (an honorable active :dwarf:) the pope just appointed a man who seems to deny miracles as the Head of the CDF.
I say we remain aloof from the N.O.
A huge problem about this topic is that what we're up against here is APOSTASY. Apostates can not sit around while Catholics do good, but instead never rest day or night until they have done their worst against Catholics. Because the NO apostates are possessed they are also OBSESSED against Roman Catholics and the valid Latin Mass.
What is the use of going to the NO parish priest for the Latin Mass when CARDINAL WALTER KASPER has COMMANDED that the existing "Extraordinary Mass" WILL BE EXTERMINATED from the NO in the foreseeable future in order to use it to form the "Reform of the Reform" New New Mass. Is the little layman going to that priest MIGHTIER than the ABSOLUTELY MIGHTY Cardinal Kasper? Inside the NO Cardinal Kasper is THE MASTER OF THE UNIVERSE and if you seriously say otherwise, then believe you me, the said Cardinal is going to have your head on a platter, or some other part of your anatomy of his own choosing. Of course, we aren't important enough for such attentions from the not-so-good Cardinal Kasper, but IF WE WERE then we could go to the bank on the fact that he would stop at NOTHING to destroy us rather than allow us to ACTUALLY frustrate his COMMAND that the "Extraordinary Form of the Mass" WILL BE ELIMINATED from his NO in due course.
Going to NO clergy for the true Mass is very like going to Mao Tse-tung or Joe Stalin for the advancement of private property in Red China or the U.S.S.R. Not wise!
"Dear" Benedict XVI is in harsh fact a ruthless militant of the GERMAN COMMUNIST PARTY and, since many apparently can't distinguish a German Marxist from a limp cauliflower, may readers PLEASE rest assured that as a life-long militant of the old GERMAN K.P.D. the not-so-good Benedict will STOP AT NOTHING to see that the COMMAND of his beloved comrade Kasper is OBEYED. Benedict and Kasper ARE German Communist comrades and they will not be contradicted in any of their orders. German comrades ALWAYS work as ONE.
Look at what is happening to the SSPX now that Kasper and therefore his comrade Benedict have COMMANDED the immanent end to the "Extraordinary Form." Do we seriously think that the CMRI and SSPV by themselves have the chance of snowballs in Hell against the German Red juggernaut now sitting in the Vatican? Little old ladies going to their NO parish priests are going to override the mighty Cardinal Kasper's DIKTAT of the GERMAN Communist Party? Disneyland is in California, but "the Vatican" is now located in DEUTSCHLAND.
The NO is eating the SSPX for breakfast using men who are very much from out of the East German Stasi Secret Police, men who are considerably MORE ruthless than the Gestapo of yore. Therefore we CAN NOT remain "aloof" from the NO any more than in the old days we could have remained "aloof" from the Gestapo or the Stasi. Marxist apostates actively seek out and destroy their targets! Needless to say, we Roman Catholics are their targets.
The only way forward for those Catholics who survive is going to be necessarily military in nature. The TLM will flourish, but through military men when military men so decide. The SSPX, CMRI, SSPV and "requests" for the "Extraordinary Form" have practically nothing significant to do with the actual future of the TLM on planet earth.
We are at WAR with the NO and its N.A.T.O. creatures and Jєωιѕн masters. THE TIME FOR CHILDISH GAMES IS PAST. We Catholic men should pray like warriors, study like warriors, coordinate like warrors, and when the time comes (AS IT WILL) then we will most certainly have to fight like warriors too.
We are truly on the threshold of a new world and, come what may, that world is going to be a ROMAN CATHOLIC world!
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:incense:!Viva Cristo Rey y Viva la Virgen de Guadalupe!
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The reason is, that it is the Mass that the Latin Rite receives from antiquity. It has
its foundation in the Apostles, which is proven by archeological finds from Pompei,
where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass were found buried in
volcanic ash since A.D. 79, when Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying the city,
"freezing" it in time. (It was actually quite HOT, but we say "freeze" because time
would seem to have stopped, entombed.)
Really? Can you provide evidence for this, and the text? Also the "Canonized Traditional Latin Mass" didn't become Latin until the 3rd century.
Not true. You've been listening to fables. Do you have itching ears?
Could you just answer my questions? If I am deceived, please enlighten me.
It has been one of the straw men arguments that the Modernists put over on
unsuspecting crowds, that the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass is some kind of
fabrication, and "up for grabs," which is how they forced the stupid Novus Ordo
down our collective throats.
Maybe you didn't notice:
"...archeological finds from Pompei, where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin
Mass were found buried in volcanic ash since A.D. 79."
So how was the Mass NOT in Latin in A.D. 200 when it was in Latin in A.D. 79?
St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred in Rome, where they spoke Latin.
Mass was celebrated in the Roman catacombs. Latin inscriptions are all over the
graves there. Do you need more evidence?
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The reason is, that it is the Mass that the Latin Rite receives from antiquity. It has
its foundation in the Apostles, which is proven by archeological finds from Pompei,
where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass were found buried in
volcanic ash since A.D. 79, when Mount Vesuvius erupted, burying the city,
"freezing" it in time. (It was actually quite HOT, but we say "freeze" because time
would seem to have stopped, entombed.)
Really? Can you provide evidence for this, and the text? Also the "Canonized Traditional Latin Mass" didn't become Latin until the 3rd century.
Not true. You've been listening to fables. Do you have itching ears?
Could you just answer my questions? If I am deceived, please enlighten me.
It has been one of the straw men arguments that the Modernists put over on
unsuspecting crowds, that the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass is some kind of
fabrication, and "up for grabs," which is how they forced the stupid Novus Ordo
down our collective throats.
Maybe you didn't notice:
"...archeological finds from Pompei, where texts from the Canonized Traditional Latin
Mass were found buried in volcanic ash since A.D. 79."
So how was the Mass NOT in Latin in A.D. 200 when it was in Latin in A.D. 79?
St. Peter and St. Paul were martyred in Rome, where they spoke Latin.
Mass was celebrated in the Roman catacombs. Latin inscriptions are all over the
graves there. Do you need more evidence?
There are also the most truly expert authorities like Father Henry Formby who have concluded that Our Lord was a Roman citizen closely associated with the Roman Army in Sepphoris and who therefore PROBABLY spoke Latin as His primary language or "native tongue." Although obviously something like that can't be "proven," nevertheless the preponderance of the most insightful experts does favour that view of Our Lord on earth. So the truer challenge might be to theorise when the Mass wasn't in Latin more than when it first was. The most extraordinary love of predilection Our Lord had and has for Rome would also seem to favour this approach.
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:incense:!Viva Cristo Rey y Viva la Virgen de Guadalupe!
Thank you for your "Clickable Smilies." Their and your prayers are most timely this year. I should add that what I said above your response is also pretty much the sort of thing Bishop Williamson has been saying too. I'm just much more blunt with my language. But prayers are the most helpful thing most of us can contribute for the victory of the TLM.
It's true.
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Dom Prosper Gueranger, the great liturgist of the 19th century,
demonstrated that it was "the sympathy of heretics for the vernacular in the
divine service" that had brought the Council of Trent to "pronounce a dogmatic
definition in this matter which at first seemed only to affect discipline."
Instead, the Council Fathers had not taken a disciplinary measure, but had
given a "dogmatic definition" establishing Latin as a sacred language and ipso
facto, excluding vernaculars from the liturgy of the Mass.
Fears expressed if the Church were ever to abandon her Latin language
have come true in the post-Vatican II period:
~ Pre-Vatican II: The Holy See feared that the substitution of national languages
for Latin would be opening the door to schism and the nationalization of
worship.
Post-Vatican II: the liturgy has become nationalized.
~ Pre-Vatican II: The Holy See feared that the introduction of the vulgar tongues
would work toward the separation from Rome of the nationalized churches.
Post-Vatican II: The "American Church," the "French Church," the "German
Church," etc., are in effect in schism from the Roman Catholic Church, hanging
only by the thread of a facade.
~ Pre-Vatican II: The Holy See viewed Latin as going with Catholicism
and the vernacular with Protestantism.
Post-Vatican II: The institutional Catholic Church has become Protestantized
in liturgy and doctrine to a degree that not even Martin Luther imagined.
It is not happenstance that when the Novus Ordo apparatus abandoned the
Church's catholic language, the Church began disintegrating. You see, language
is not just some accident, like the particular glint of a gemstone. Rather, it
is at the essence of the gemstone. If you try to split it, you risk fracturing
the entire stone. Anyone who has seriously studied language is well aware that
thought (semantics) and its expression (language) are inseparable. That is
exactly what happened when the Novus Ordo apparatus began to abandon its
Latinitas, its Romanitas.
Nor was this happenstance either, or for any of the mindless mantras one
hears -- for better "participation" of the "people," for "aggiornamento," for
"modernismo," or whatever. Rather, it was deliberately planned so that a new
theology could be constructed. It was the first and most serious coffin-nail
driven into the Church by Vatican II and its aftermath.
It seems common in some traditional circles these days to underestimate
the importance of the Roman Catholic's Church's proper language. Of course,
all traditional Catholics understand that the Latin language must be retained
in the Divine Office, the Holy Mass, and the Sacraments. But one can never
underestimate the importance of Latin in retaining the unadulterated doctrine
of the Church.
THE INTRODUCTION OF THE VULGAR LANGUAGES INTO THE CHURCH
WAS THE SINGLE ACTION THAT ALLOWED THE NEW ORDER RELIGION
TO BE CREATED.
The New Order Innovators knew full well that they could not foist their
New Religion upon the Church if they used the traditional Latin. Is it any
wonder, then, that the first action they took after Vatican II was to introduce
the vulgar tongues into the Church?
As Vatican II was winding down, the message in various seminaries to
the seminarians was that they had to learn the Latin liturgy (which was then
in the "transitional rite," but not to worry, because they would not have to use
it. By the time those seminarians were ordained, the new mass was already
being performed in vernacular tongues. Thus, Latin, or rather, the lack of it,
was the arrowhead on the spear they used to pierce Tradition.
Traditional Catholics should never underestimate the importance of Latin
in the divine plan for the Roman Catholic Church. They should learn it, at
least to some degree, and fight for it. Who could be considered a Jєω without
being able to read passages from the Torah? Jєωs are proud to study their
sacred language at Saturday schools. Why are Catholics, even traditional
Catholics, failing to do the same with their sacred language?
Many Church writers, including the Franciscan Tertiary Dante Alighieri,
tied the Latin language inextricably with the fate of the Church. In more
recent times, Pope Pius XII presciently warned in 1958:
The day the Catholic Church gives up its Latin language is the day it
returns to the catacombs.
Well, folks, wasn't the pope right? Isn't traditional Catholicism back in
the catacombs? But remember that the Church rose victorious from the
catacombs, as will true Catholicism.
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There are also the most truly expert authorities like Father Henry Formby who have concluded that Our Lord was a Roman citizen closely associated with the Roman Army in Sepphoris and who therefore PROBABLY spoke Latin as His primary language or "native tongue." Although obviously something like that can't be "proven," nevertheless the preponderance of the most insightful experts does favour that view of Our Lord on earth. So the truer challenge might be to theorise when the Mass wasn't in Latin more than when it first was. The most extraordinary love of predilection Our Lord had and has for Rome would also seem to favour this approach.
If Jesus was a Roman citizen, then how could he have been crucified? Remember,
that St. Paul was a Roman, and that's why they couldn't crucify him. But St. Peter
was not, and so he was crucified, but he chose to be upside-down, for he did not
feel worthy to so imitate Our Lord.
But we should have no doubts that Our Lord could have spoken any language he
chose to speak. Certainly he would have conversed with the Roman soldiers in the
Garden of Olives, and Pontius Pilate and Herod, in Latin.
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What I simply know, first of all, is that the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass (as how Neil Obstat puts it) will be restored.
Some priests learn to say it or want to learn to say it, but the obstacles placed by the current hierarchy still persist. They cannot last forever though.
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There are also the most truly expert authorities like Father Henry Formby who have concluded that Our Lord was a Roman citizen closely associated with the Roman Army in Sepphoris and who therefore PROBABLY spoke Latin as His primary language or "native tongue." Although obviously something like that can't be "proven," nevertheless the preponderance of the most insightful experts does favour that view of Our Lord on earth. So the truer challenge might be to theorise when the Mass wasn't in Latin more than when it first was. The most extraordinary love of predilection Our Lord had and has for Rome would also seem to favour this approach.
If Jesus was a Roman citizen, then how could he have been crucified? Remember,
that St. Paul was a Roman, and that's why they couldn't crucify him. But St. Peter
was not, and so he was crucified, but he chose to be upside-down, for he did not
feel worthy to so imitate Our Lord.
But we should have no doubts that Our Lord could have spoken any language he
chose to speak. Certainly he would have conversed with the Roman soldiers in the
Garden of Olives, and Pontius Pilate and Herod, in Latin.
Here we may be more dealing with the thread on why white European Catholics don't have more charity towards each other, or perhaps such an important topic as this might belong on many threads. At any rate, here's a modest attempt to partially answer this vast theme:
The historical evidence that the Roman Census of Quirinius was specifically for Roman citizens only is actually quite rock-solid. Like many of the Roman censuses, that particular Roman census was concerned with the citizenry and very largely only the citizenry. So when St. Joseph and St. Mary had to go to Bethlehem to be counted, the clear historic meaning of that is that they had to have been Roman citizens and therefore under legal obligation to be so counted.
Also Our Lord's extended family connections were in truth quite aristocratic and upper crust, so it isn't at all surprising that people of such elevated social rank would also be Roman citizens. The Holy Family lived in straightened circuмstances in Nazareth due to the fear of the Jєωs, or the Herodian Establishment of the time, and not because they simply lacked family wealth. They were very pious aristocracy who did not at all pursue wealth, but they had quite excellent family backgrounds nevertheless. Also, the Magi left the Holy Family with considerable means as well so again the Holy Family were fully capable of being respectable Roman citizens of that day and age. They had to keep a low profile in Nazareth primarily due to fear of persecution by "the Jєωs" who were then beginning to come together as an apostate anti-race for the first time.
Then there is the key truth about why Our Lord could only be convicted by Pontius Pilate and wasn't simply dispatched by the Sanhedrin forthwith. The usual claim that the Sanhedrin were too meek and modest and helpless to execute anyone is both historically false (there is not a shred of historical evidence that the Sanhedrin at that time lacked full authority to execute white Hebrews to their bloodthirsty heart's content!) and, given the extreme power of that Sanhedrin as actually the dominant power in the economy of the entire Roman Empire of that time, wildly nonsensical. It's a bit like saying that today the City of London and Wall Street all together couldn't manage to eliminate someone if they seriously desired to do so because they're such helpless little people who would never harm a fly. So to speak, "when pigs fly!"
So the glaring and actually reasonably obvious reason the real-life mighty Sanhedrin couldn't directly murder Our Lord is that he was OUTSIDE THEIR JURISDICTION. In other words, because Our Lord was a Roman citizen who could ONLY be touched by ROMAN JUSTICE. The verses often cited in John 18:31 that Jєωs couldn't murder anybody can be taken more as typical Jєωιѕн (in that context the Edomized apostate ex-Hebrews) chutzpah. Sort of like Jack the Ripper retorting that "Golly, I could never harm a fly!" Have Jєωs ever lied to us before? The passage in John 18:31 is mostly another flagrant example of just that.
The elaborate list of falsehoods often used to cover up the guilt of the Deicide people (namely, the JєωS, not the Romans/Europeans) includes yet another carefully crafted falsehood that a Roman citizen could NEVER be crucified. Yet again, NOT SO. There was not any legal or psychological barrier then against crucifying a Roman citizen FOR HIGH TREASON. And, clearly, that is precisely why the Jєωs were then so maniacal about convicting Our Lord in front of Pontius Pilate for EXACTLY that one incomparably grave crime by endlessly repeating that Our Lord claimed to be the rightful KING OF ISRAEL. The Jєωs were thereby saying that Our Lord was claiming to be the only legitimate Emperor of the Roman Empire against the then-reigning Tiberius Caesar. The Jєωs were most maliciously weaving their lie that He was nothing more than an ENEMY OF THE ROMAN STATE. When, needless to say, it was the Jєωs who were then the REAL enemies of the Roman State and Empire! Much like certain fabulously rich Jєωιѕн usurers on Wall Street today who accuse anyone and everyone of being enemies of the State when they themselves are the true worst enemies of all law and order. (The Koch Brothers come to mind.)
For the crime of attempting to overthrow the Roman Emperor Tiberius Caesar the Jєωs knew that Our Lord could most assuredly be crucified, even though He was a Roman citizen as were his beloved Blessed Virgin Mother and Holy Foster-Father. That was the ONLY way the malevolent Sanhedrin and Jerusalem High Priesthood could kill Him. And that is what the Jєωs then did... They terrorized Pontius Pilate with their usual technique of fomenting mass hysteria among the uneducated rabble and forced Pilate to go along with their most wicked scheme.
The Jєωs killed Our Lord Jesus Christ! They are the DEICIDE people and race. And they are still at it today, still doing their best to kill the Roman Catholics at ever opportunity they can get. "The more things change, the more they remain the same."
As far as the restoration of our beloved TLM is concerned, among the greatest assists to that effort would be for Catholics to understand that the white Europeans or Romans did not murder Jesus. His blood is not in any way DIRECTLY on our heads as white Europeans/Romans. Even though all sin contributes to the Death of the Lord, the direct and immediate guilt for the Murder of God rests entirely and most terribly on the heads of the Jєωs ALONE.
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:incense:!Viva Cristo Rey y Viva la Virgen de Guadalupe!
Amen and amen!