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Offline PaulLuke

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How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
« on: July 31, 2012, 04:24:01 PM »
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  • Let's say that at some time in the future our prayers are answered and the Holy Ghost inspires the pope (either Benedict XVI or, much more likely, a future one) that the Novus Ordo needs to be dispensed with and the Traditional Latin Mass made the "Ordinary Form" (I know none of us here consider the TLM to be the Extraordinary Form). How do you envision it being brought back?

    One barrier that would exist is architectural. The very vast majority of post-V2 churches have been built with the NO in mind, meaning displaced tabernacle, no 3 steps up to the altar, no communion rail, etc, not to mention the deplorable lack of other Catholic figures and images.

    In addition, most priests that have come along since V2 know next to nothing about Latin, and so they would all need to be trained accordingly. The laity would similarly have to be trained in the proper Latin responses, as well as the Missal and proper Mass etiquette/dress.

    Also, I don't know if the TLM could just be switched to all of a sudden for many people (especially less devout Catholics). I feel like changing the prayers back (at least to English before Latin, maybe) would be easiest, but it would take time for everyone to accept Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.

    Thoughts?

    Offline theology101

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 04:31:28 PM »
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  • I've wondered about this too. It was hard enough for me to learn the NO mass, and Im very slowly starting to learn the latin mass. Perhaps each church could offer s general catechism class for a half hour before each mass to help teach the proper responses etc. Would be a good way to get people more involved maybe.


    Offline Ascetik

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 04:34:28 PM »
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  • Abrogate the Novus Ordo, burn every missal, like they tried to do with the TLM. :)

    Offline Scriptorium

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 05:11:50 PM »
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  • I think it will be gradual and slow. Perhaps up to 100 years. Perhaps after another council. There will probably be some vernacular options, like the readings, and perhaps some minor revisions to the Order of the Mass. There will be some critical mass, and then it will come. In the mean time the NO will be getting more and more traditional in its celebration (ad orientem, etc.), and then the plug will be pulled. I don't see anything abrupt. Too many people would be unprepared to come back to the TLM. The ground needs to be watered first. This may not satisfy some, but I think it is the most plausible scenario, and the one I think Pope Benedict envisions, at least in part.

    Offline Malleus 01

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 05:23:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: PaulLuke
    Let's say that at some time in the future our prayers are answered and the Holy Ghost inspires the pope (either Benedict XVI or, much more likely, a future one) that the Novus Ordo needs to be dispensed with and the Traditional Latin Mass made the "Ordinary Form" (I know none of us here consider the TLM to be the Extraordinary Form). How do you envision it being brought back?

    One barrier that would exist is architectural. The very vast majority of post-V2 churches have been built with the NO in mind, meaning displaced tabernacle, no 3 steps up to the altar, no communion rail, etc, not to mention the deplorable lack of other Catholic figures and images.

    In addition, most priests that have come along since V2 know next to nothing about Latin, and so they would all need to be trained accordingly. The laity would similarly have to be trained in the proper Latin responses, as well as the Missal and proper Mass etiquette/dress.

    Also, I don't know if the TLM could just be switched to all of a sudden for many people (especially less devout Catholics). I feel like changing the prayers back (at least to English before Latin, maybe) would be easiest, but it would take time for everyone to accept Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.

    Thoughts?


    Since 7 year old Child can use a Latin to English Missal - its about as easy as a single Papal Decree.   As for the Other 6 Sacraments including Holy Orders - they too would have to be changed back and the N O Priests possibly conditionally ordained.


    Offline Sigismund

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 06:01:13 PM »
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  • I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF.  I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline s2srea

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 06:07:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF.  I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.


    Ouch. Well, maybe not in our lifetime, but I don't really think it is realistic to call a protestantized liturgical celebration the 'Ordinary Form' and call the mass that has existed for 2000 years, made the saints of The Church, and which is completely free of protestantization, the Extraordinary Form- that's what I would call an, oxy-moron. Do you not think you do a disservice to, and dishonor, it by calling it so?

    Offline s2srea

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #7 on: July 31, 2012, 06:09:48 PM »
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  • Also my friend, do you not think the men who decided to distinguish between the Tridentine Mass and Novus Ordo used these new terms, OF and EF, with an intent that is less than holy?


    Offline s2srea

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 06:15:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF.  I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.


    I just thought about something, its a bit off topic, but I hope you don't mind. Do you remember telling us about the Roman bishop/cardinal back east who tried to, essentially, eliminate and assimilate the Byzantines rite and their practices by making them more Roman and the disdain your priest-son (I believe it was him, but forgive me if I'm off) and his brother priests felt?

    I wonder if you think that bishop/ cardinal decided to impose a similar practice of calling the Byzantine rite of the mass extraordinary, if your son and his fellow brother priests would have gone along with it.

    Offline Sigismund

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #9 on: July 31, 2012, 07:41:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Sigismund
    I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF.  I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.


    Ouch. Well, maybe not in our lifetime, but I don't really think it is realistic to call a protestantized liturgical celebration the 'Ordinary Form' and call the mass that has existed for 2000 years, made the saints of The Church, and which is completely free of protestantization, the Extraordinary Form- that's what I would call an, oxy-moron. Do you not think you do a disservice to, and dishonor, it by calling it so?


    I generally call it the Traditional Latin Mass, which I thing is both more accurate and more respectful.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Pius IX

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #10 on: July 31, 2012, 07:46:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ascetik
    Abrogate the Novus Ordo, burn every missal, like they tried to do with the TLM.


    I agree.


    Offline Sigismund

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #11 on: July 31, 2012, 07:47:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Sigismund
    I don't really think it is realistic to expect that the NO will ever disappear, or even that the EF will become the OF.  I would be very happy to be wrong, at least about the second part.


    I just thought about something, its a bit off topic, but I hope you don't mind. Do you remember telling us about the Roman bishop/cardinal back east who tried to, essentially, eliminate and assimilate the Byzantines rite and their practices by making them more Roman and the disdain your priest-son (I believe it was him, but forgive me if I'm off) and his brother priests felt?

    I wonder if you think that bishop/ cardinal decided to impose a similar practice of calling the Byzantine rite of the mass extraordinary, if your son and his fellow brother priests would have gone along with it.


    I think they would laugh and ignore something that silly.

    The bishop in question was not a Latin Rite bishop.  He was the Byzantine eparch of Pittsburgh, Nicholas Elko.  He seemed to think that Latin rite practice was really Catholic, and that he had to make the Byzantine rite more like the Latin to make it more Catholic.  To be fair, whoever, the Latinizations he imposed were not of the NO variety.  They would have been considered, rightly, traditional Latin rite practices.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Stubborn

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #12 on: July 31, 2012, 07:57:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: PaulLuke
    Let's say that at some time in the future our prayers are answered and the Holy Ghost inspires the pope (either Benedict XVI or, much more likely, a future one) that the Novus Ordo needs to be dispensed with and the Traditional Latin Mass made the "Ordinary Form" (I know none of us here consider the TLM to be the Extraordinary Form). How do you envision it being brought back?

    One barrier that would exist is architectural. The very vast majority of post-V2 churches have been built with the NO in mind, meaning displaced tabernacle, no 3 steps up to the altar, no communion rail, etc, not to mention the deplorable lack of other Catholic figures and images.

    In addition, most priests that have come along since V2 know next to nothing about Latin, and so they would all need to be trained accordingly. The laity would similarly have to be trained in the proper Latin responses, as well as the Missal and proper Mass etiquette/dress.

    Also, I don't know if the TLM could just be switched to all of a sudden for many people (especially less devout Catholics). I feel like changing the prayers back (at least to English before Latin, maybe) would be easiest, but it would take time for everyone to accept Latin, ad orientem, Communion kneeling and on the tongue, etc.

    Thoughts?


    There is no way that the NO can coexist with the TLM - as such, the mockery of the TLM would necessarily need to be flushed down the toilet and into the sewer from whence it came and this, along with the reasons for it's flushing, would need to be proclaimed to the entire world from the pope.

    There is simply no other alternative.

    To put it another way, in the words (writing) of Fr. Wathen, here is a partial snip from his "Who Shall Ascend?................................

    A. What Must Be Done
    In view of the great aberration of the Conciliar Religion, the grave disorders which rack the Mystical Body of Christ, and the long sorrow of the Catholic faithful, we are confronted with the question, what must be done in order that a general restoration of the Church might be brought about? Were it possible, we would propose to His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, the following list of steps which need to be taken immediately.  No doubt, many might consider the very idea preposterous.  Be that as it may, it is presented here as a kind of summation of the seriousness of the Church's present state, and the momentous reform which we may pray God, will sooner or later be undertaken.  
    1.  The offering of the Novus Ordo Missae should be forbidden immediately and for all time to come.
    2.  It should be commanded that, henceforth, Sacraments in the Roman Rite are to be administered according to rites prescribed prior to the Second Vatican Council.
    3.  Priests should be ordered to consume, without ceremony, all hosts putatively consecrated at the Novus Ordo Missae.  
    4.  No liturgical act, nor any other religious function should be allowed in churches, oratories, etc... until these places have been properly reconciled to Catholic worship, according to the norms of the Code of Canon Law and the Roman Ritual.  
    5.  "New Mass priests" should be forbidden to attempt the administration of any Sacraments, until they have been duly absolved for their infidelities and acts of sacrilege.  Before such absolution can be given, it must be ascertained that such priests are validly ordained, that they believe in the Catholic religion, and truly and willingly submit to the authority of the Roman Church.  
    6.  Priests should be permitted to resume the saying of the True Mass, i.e., that of the Missale Romanum, only after they have confessed their infidelity to it and to our holy Faith.  Those who have never said the True Mass should be allowed to do so only after they have satisfied their ordinaries, or religious superiors, that they are able to do so properly.  
    7.  Priests should not be permitted to accept Mass intentions or stipends for the immediate future.  Many millions of Masses will have to be offered to fulfill the intentions of those whose requests were not fulfilled by the Novus Ordo Missae.  
    8.  All priests of orthodox faith and sufficient mental and physical health should be called out of retirement.
    9.  The laity who have taken up with the Conciliarist religion and who have attended the Novus Ordo Missae should be required to confess these sins before being allowed to receive Holy Communion.  Those who have been acting as lay ministers, eucharistic ministers, etc. should be forbidden to do so again.  
    10.  All ordinations to the priesthood and consecrations to the episcopacy should be suspended indefinitely.
    11.  Priests should not be allowed to preach or perform any other pastoral duties, until they have recited publicly and before the tabernacle, wherein is the true Blessed Eucharist, the Profession of Faith and the Oath against Modernism (in its unabridged form), and until they pronounce their assent to the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius the IX.  Those who cannot or will not do this for any reason, should be allowed to return to the lay state.  
    12.  All who have the obligation should be required to resume the recitation of the Roman Breviary.  This obligation should henceforth bind under the pain of mortal sin.  
    13.  All clerics of whatever rank or office should be commanded to suspend the exercise of their jurisdiction, until they have been properly reconciled to the Church.  Until then, all should be made to understand that their acts are without validity.  
    14.  It should be announced that the decrees of the Second Vatican Council are to be considered of no effect.  If and when the next ecumenical council is convened for a more detailed restoration of the Church, the usefulness of any parts of these decrees can be studied.  
    15.  All acts of all the Congregations of the Roman Curia should be suspended for further review.  
    16.  All treaties, agreements, concessions, promises, etc, whether overt or secret, made with Communist, socialist, or other illegitimate governments should be declared non-operative, null and void.  These governments should be condemned by name.  Masses and other prayers for their speedy collapse should be ordered immediately.  
    17.  All agreements, which pertain to religious or theological or ministerial matters, made with non-Catholic church groups should be declared suspended.  All who belong to associations which engage in dialogues with such groups should be commanded to withdraw immediately.  The affiliation of the Church in non-Catholic institutes, councils, conferences, etc, should be terminated.  
    18.  All clerics who belong to the Communist Party, to any branch or lodge of Freemasonry, or to any other secret society, should be required to tender their resignations from ecclesiastical office immediately.  
    19.  Ecclesiastical censures imposed upon priests because of their adherence to the orthodox Faith and/or the Mass of the Roman Rite should be acknowledged to have been null and void from their inception.  Public notice should be given of this fact.  
    20.  A period of time for Masses and other acts of reparation for the sins, scandals, and sacrileges of the Conciliar era should be designated.
    21.  The restorative acts listed above, which pertain to the Roman Rite, should be imported on the other Rites of the Church to the extent that this is needful.  
    22.  As soon as possible, a commission of clerics, orthodox in their faith, should be instituted and empowered for the work of the thorough "Cleansing of the Temple."
    23.  Steps should be taken whereby all the cardinals, bishops, abbots, and other prelates of the Church be assembled in Rome for the official consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Sister Lucia of Fatima should be summoned to Rome for this event, which should be carried out exactly as our Lady of Fatima requested.  
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Sigismund

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #13 on: July 31, 2012, 09:15:49 PM »
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  • This is never going to happen.  Are you a sedevacantist?  If so, I can see your arguments. although I vigorously disagree.  If you are not, why not?  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    How would the TLM be "reinstated"?
    « Reply #14 on: July 31, 2012, 09:31:26 PM »
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  • I take issue with 23. Sister Lucy died in 2005 and if it is proved that she was an imposter, the real Sister Lucy died years earlier.

     

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