Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?  (Read 2583 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline forlorn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2449
  • Reputation: +964/-1098
  • Gender: Male
How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
« on: April 27, 2018, 03:49:11 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • I keep hearing Resistance Catholics here state that the Novus Ordo mass is invalid and not "received and approved" despite having been promulgated by (in their eyes) a valid Pope. Could someone please shed some light on this perspective?
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #1 on: April 27, 2018, 04:21:29 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Its validity is doubtful due to many serious concerns.  Read the Ottaviani intervention where he lists the theological problems of it.  A catholic is not allowed to attend a mass/sacraments where validity is doubtful.

    It is licit in that it exists, but not licit for a priest to use the missal (and consequently not licit for a layman to attend) because it violates Quo Priumum's strict requirements for exclusivity in the latin rite.

    It is obviously immoral due to its circuмstances (sacrilegious communion in the hand, irreverent atmosphere, liturgical anomolies).
    Logged

    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2449
    • Reputation: +964/-1098
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #2 on: April 27, 2018, 04:25:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 27, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
    Its validity is doubtful due to many serious concerns.  Read the Ottaviani intervention where he lists the theological problems of it.  A catholic is not allowed to attend a mass/sacraments where validity is doubtful.

    It is licit in that it exists, but not licit for a priest to use the missal (and consequently not licit for a layman to attend) because it violates Quo Priumum's strict requirements for exclusivity in the latin rite.

    It is obviously immoral due to its circuмstances (sacrilegious communion in the hand, irreverent atmosphere, liturgical anomolies).
    Quo Primum is law not Scripture. It cannot prevent further Popes from overriding it. 
    And whether it is immoral or not is not up for the laymen to decide, as according to Trent we are not allowed to say masses celebrated by the Catholic Church lead to impiety.
    Logged

    Offline PG

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1734
    • Reputation: +457/-476
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #3 on: April 27, 2018, 04:29:56 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: forlorn on April 27, 2018, 03:49:11 PM
    I keep hearing Resistance Catholics here state that the Novus Ordo mass is invalid and not "received and approved" despite having been promulgated by (in their eyes) a valid Pope. Could someone please shed some light on this perspective?
    Many here are not resistance catholics.  Many here entertain and spread on the forum a mish mosh of odd opinions, and that is probably who you are hearing this from.  The resistance considers the new mass on an official(the pope is the pope) level valid.  Practically speaking, in many cases it appears to be invalid.  Due to this and other reasons, it is on an unofficial level illicit.  I may be wrong about the that last part concerning its level of licit-ness, but I don't think so.  We have a positive doubt that the new mass is not licit.  But, I don't that positive doubt raise something to the level of official.  That is more of a jurisdictional discussion.   And, the resistance bishops do not claim such authority.  

    The reason I think why people regard it as not "received an approved"(not my emphasis) is because the old mass was never "officially" forbidden.  That is my guess as to why they entertain such illegality about the new masses promulgation details.  
    Logged
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Centroamerica

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2655
    • Reputation: +1641/-438
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #4 on: April 27, 2018, 05:40:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Many of the Resistance seem to have completely dropped the sound judgement of Fr. Hesse, however, he has the answer to this question.

    The Novus Ordo was never officially promulgated by Paul VI in any official capacity whatsoever. There is no docuмent or Bula that says this. What there is is a signature Bugnini acquired which basically says I like this book in reference to the Missal of the Novus Ordo Missae.

    That said, the Resistance considers the New Mass illicit and doubtful. Archbishop Lefebvre said in 1988 that all the Novus Ordo sacraments were now doubtful due to non-Catholic intentions. Doubtful sacraments must be avoided as if they were invalid. As far as the participation of the laity is concerned, doubtful is the same as invalid. See what the Dominicans of Avrillé posted about this here...  http://www.dominicansavrille.us/questionable-priestly-ordinations-in-the-conciliar-church/
    Logged
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10299
    • Reputation: +6212/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #5 on: April 27, 2018, 07:14:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • The other point regarding the new mass and its legality is this:  as PG pointed out, the difference between the IDEAL novus ordo mass and the actual, practical liturgy that is said everywhere is as wide as the Grand Canyon.  This is why conservative novus ordo-ites were asking Pope Benedict for a “reform of the reform”, because they recognized that the “abuses” (ie sacrileges) in the novus ordo were rampant and varied.  These sacrileges and rubric-craziness were not part of the IDEAL novus ordo, while on the other hand, it’s lack of structure invites experimentation.  

    Cardinal Ottaviani and his fellow theologians examined an IDEAL new mass and still had problems with its philosophy and lack of theological precision.  What they said still applies today.  
    Logged

    Offline Maryrose

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5
    • Reputation: +1/-7
    • Gender: Female
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #6 on: April 27, 2018, 10:08:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Father Hess,  theologian, was tasked by Pope Benedict, XVI to determine if the Novus Ordo Mass was valid or not.  He determined it was not as the words of consecration had changed the meaning.  That is when  Pope Benedict changed the words of consecration back.  Father Hess also declared it has serious problems, such as communion in the hand (crumbs fall all over and are trampled), etc.

    https://spideroak.com/browse/share/Hesse/MP3-Remastered/Fr.%20Gregory%20Hesse%20Audio%20Files%20(Remastered)/
    Logged

    Offline PG

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1734
    • Reputation: +457/-476
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #7 on: April 27, 2018, 10:51:23 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Maryrose on April 27, 2018, 10:08:40 PM
    Father Hess,  theologian, was tasked by Pope Benedict, XVI to determine if the Novus Ordo Mass was valid or not.  He determined it was not as the words of consecration had changed the meaning.  That is when  Pope Benedict changed the words of consecration back.  Father Hess also declared it has serious problems, such as communion in the hand (crumbs fall all over and are trampled), etc.

    https://spideroak.com/browse/share/Hesse/MP3-Remastered/Fr.%20Gregory%20Hesse%20Audio%20Files%20(Remastered)/
    Are you trying to pull a fast one?  Why would ratzinger task fr. hesse to find out if the new rite is valid or not?  I have listened to him, and I do not recall that one.  And, fr. hesse was referring to the vernacular english translation in the united states, not the latin or even all translations in general.  The US bishops had translated it as for you and all instead of you and many.  And, fr. hesse considered that an invalidating factor.  But, the american bishops conference are to blame for that, not strictly paul VI, which is what we are concerned with when we discuss validity with a capital V.  Yes there are serious problems with the new mass, but those rather concern whether it is licit or not.  Communion in the hand is not officially required, and neither is the removal of the paten, or the mandating of crumbly hosts for that matter(priests have commented how different hosts can be concerning crumbs).  
    Logged
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #8 on: April 28, 2018, 03:24:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • Both Bishop Williamson and Fr. Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.
    Logged

    Offline Maryrose

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 5
    • Reputation: +1/-7
    • Gender: Female
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #9 on: April 28, 2018, 01:02:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
    • If you had listened to Father Hess, you would understand.  

    It's the words of consecration that make a Mass valid or invalid.  If the words of consecration are changed, then there is no changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus.  Other changes may just make the Mass less efficacious or worse, offensive to God.
    Logged

    Offline Carissima

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 782
    • Reputation: +569/-229
    • Gender: Female
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #10 on: April 28, 2018, 01:12:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: poche on April 28, 2018, 03:24:54 AM
    Both Bishop Williamson and Fr. Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.
    Fr Pfeiffer claims the New Mass doesn’t give grace. It would be highly unlikely that he would give a pass to go to the NO. 
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41839
    • Reputation: +23907/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #11 on: April 28, 2018, 02:37:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Maryrose on April 28, 2018, 01:02:48 PM
    If you had listened to Father Hess, you would understand.  

    It's the words of consecration that make a Mass valid or invalid.  If the words of consecration are changed, then there is no changing of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus.  Other changes may just make the Mass less efficacious or worse, offensive to God.

    That's clearly false based on the teaching of Leo XIII regarding the Anglican Orders, namely, that even if the essential form is strictly valid, the rite could be invalidated ex adiunctis.
    Logged

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41839
    • Reputation: +23907/-4344
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 02:44:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: poche on April 28, 2018, 03:24:54 AM
    Both Bishop Williamson and Fr. Pfeiffer have said that it is ok to go to the Novus Ordo.

    That's a gross oversimplification of what they actually said, bordering on calumny.
    Logged

    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1218/-4688
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #13 on: April 29, 2018, 12:18:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Carissima on April 28, 2018, 01:12:27 PM
    Fr Pfeiffer claims the New Mass doesn’t give grace. It would be highly unlikely that he would give a pass to go to the NO.
    I think he was referring to situations where there were no options in regard to being able to go to the TLM. According to him the Novus Ordo is preferred to a high protestant service and an Orthodox Divine Liturgy.
    Logged

    Offline Theosist

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 116
    • Reputation: +59/-171
    • Gender: Male
    Re: How isn't Novus Ordo a valid rite?
    « Reply #14 on: April 29, 2018, 11:58:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 27, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
    Its validity is doubtful due to many serious concerns.  Read the Ottaviani intervention where he lists the theological problems of it.  A catholic is not allowed to attend a mass/sacraments where validity is doubtful.

    It is licit in that it exists, but not licit for a priest to use the missal (and consequently not licit for a layman to attend) because it violates Quo Priumum's strict requirements for exclusivity in the latin rite.

    It is obviously immoral due to its circuмstances (sacrilegious communion in the hand, irreverent atmosphere, liturgical anomolies).
    It. It. It. No regard to context. Go see the sung Novus Ordo at the London Oratory and I’ll give you a tenner for every one of “communion in the hand, irreverent atmosphere, liturgical anomolies” you witness.

    How can a Catholic, seeing liturgical excellence that would have put most pre-60s parishes to shame, and knowing the orthodox beliefs of the celebrants (often more orthodox than Athanasian Creed denying SSPX priests), have  any justifiable doubt as to the validity of such a mass? Is there something in the words of the Last Supper that is not found in the consecration of the Eucharistic Prayer? No, he can’t. That would not just be unreasonable but would amount to a lack of faith, hope and charity: faith in God to provide, hope in the reception of grace, and charity to not presume outwardly orthodox priests, who profess belief in the transubstantiation and sacrificial nature of the mass, are secret apostates!
    Logged
    Pages: [1] 2 3
    « previous next »