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Author Topic: How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?  (Read 4047 times)

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Offline Tiffany

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How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2016, 09:17:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Italian food works really well on Fridays.

    "veggie lovers" pizza with 9 different non-meat toppings. (if you're picky and/or don't like vegetables, then boring cheese pizza for you)
    4-cheese (or just regular cheese) lasagna
    regular spaghetti without meatballs
    garlic bread sticks
    various soups

    Mexican food has similar options:

    Nachos -- everything but meat.
    cheese enchiladas
    refried beans
    guacamole (without bacon)
    tostada chips, tortillas
    salsa, pico de gallo




    Will you chop the vegetables for me? :)

    With refried beans if you are using canned make sure they are the vegetarian can the other ones are made with animal fat.  I like taco seasoning in them.

    Offline Tiffany

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #16 on: January 23, 2016, 09:44:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Peter15and1
    Thanks for the input, everyone.  It's interesting, I was at the grocery store last night and was thinking about what to get for lunch tomorrow.  I was going to buy canned vegetable soup, but noticed that it contained beef stock.  I then saw a soup called "vegetarian vegetable soup," which was made from vegetable stock instead of beef stock.  I had never really paid that close attention to what actually contains meat and what does not until now.


    Good for you for making the effort.


    Offline Nadir

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #17 on: January 23, 2016, 09:50:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Peter15and1
    Thanks for the input, everyone.  It's interesting, I was at the grocery store last night and was thinking about what to get for lunch tomorrow.  I was going to buy canned vegetable soup, but noticed that it contained beef stock.  I then saw a soup called "vegetarian vegetable soup," which was made from vegetable stock instead of beef stock.  I had never really paid that close attention to what actually contains meat and what does not until now.


    The so-called powdered chicken and beef stock that are on the shelves at the supermarkets where I buy, contain no meat.
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    Offline Lighthouse

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #18 on: January 23, 2016, 09:52:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nadir
    Quote from: Peter15and1
    Thanks for the input, everyone.  It's interesting, I was at the grocery store last night and was thinking about what to get for lunch tomorrow.  I was going to buy canned vegetable soup, but noticed that it contained beef stock.  I then saw a soup called "vegetarian vegetable soup," which was made from vegetable stock instead of beef stock.  I had never really paid that close attention to what actually contains meat and what does not until now.


    The so-called powdered chicken and beef stock that are on the shelves at the supermarkets where I buy, contain no meat.


    Wouldn't that be false advertising?   :scratchchin:

    Offline AlligatorDicax

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #19 on: January 24, 2016, 03:48:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS (Jan 21, 2016, 6:29 pm)
    [...] the commentary on Canon 1250 from: A COMMENTARY ON THE NEW CODE OF CANON LAW By THE REV. P. CHAS. AUGUSTINE O.S.B., D.D., published in 1918

    Thanks for the detailed citation.  A recent Internet search didn't find such a detailed citation, never mind actual content on line, so I suppose what you posted, you had to transcribe via your own keyboard.

    Quote from: REV. AUGUSTINE (1918) via TKGS (Jan 21, 2016, 6:29 pm)
    The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and broth or soup made of meat ; but it does not forbid cggs, lacticinia, and seasoning with fat of animals.

    Quote from: REV. AUGUSTINE (1918) via TKGS (Jan 21, 2016, 6:29 pm)

    The new law here is milder than the old, for lacticinia were not always permitted by the Church, as may be seen from some Constitutions of Benedict XIV.

    I suppose a reduction via Canon Law in the disciplinary ways for the faithful to sin is a good thing in this instance.

    Quote from: REV. AUGUSTINE (1918) via TKGS (Jan 21, 2016, 6:29 pm)

    The term lacticinia includes everything that is produced from milk, as well as the milk itself,--cheese, butter, margarine, etc. These, therefore, may be used even on days of abstinence. Fat of animals was defined as the fat, grease, or lard of any animal, not only of hogs.

    Hmmm. "lacticinia": I do try to learn something new every day.  The word is apparently a postclassical Latin plural.

    But back to my primary reason for posting: Let's not publicly overlook a source of information that's readily available to readers here, who(m?) we already know have connections to the Internet:

            <www.newadvent.org/cathen/01067a.htm>:
    Quote from: J.D. O'Neill in Catholic Encyclopedia (1907)
    Abstinence

    Adam's disobedience rendered all men criminal, and liable to the necessity of appeasing God's justice.  To meet this new exigency nature dictated the necessity of penance; [....] The chief results of this determination are positive statutes concerning fasting and abstinence.  Laws relating to fasting are principally intended to define what pertains to the quantity of food allowed on days of fasting, while those regulating abstinence, what refers to the quality of viands.  In some instances both obligations coincide; thus, the Fridays of Lent are days of fasting and abstinence.  In other instances the law of abstinence alone binds the faithful; thus ordinary Fridays are simply days of abstinence.

    The purpose of this article is to trace the history of ecclesiastical legislation regarding the law of abstinence, as well as to examine the motives which underlie this legislation.

    So the article is quite a bit longer and more detailed than would be practical for inscriptions on stone tablets or metal sheets.

    Quote from: J.D. O'Neill in Catholic Encyclopedia (1907)
    [&#167] Application of the law in the United States

    Diversity in customs, in climate, and in prices of food have gradually paved the way for modifications of the law of abstinence.  Throughout the United States the ordinary Saturday is no longer a day of abstinence.  During Lent, in virtue of an indult, the faithful are allowed to eat meat at their principal meal on Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, the second and last Saturdays excepted. The use of meat on such days is not restricted to the principal meal for such as are exempt from fasting by reason of ill health, age, or laborious occupations.  [Much more ...]

    There's no direct
    • link to this section, altho' it's an excellent example of a C.E. page that would benefit from them.

      Quote from: J.D. O'Neill in Catholic Encyclopedia (1907)
      Eggs, milk, butter, and cheese, formerly prohibited, are now permitted without restriction as far as the day of the week is concerned. The use of lard or dripping in preparing fish and vegetables at all meals and on all days is allowed by an indult issued 3 August, 1887.   [Much more ...]

      Ah!  I knew I'd gotten this information from somewhere that I considered authoritative.

      Odd that the source I cite below disagrees about fat of animals.  I assume that's because the prevailing modern substantive meaning of "seasoning" seems to be "(thing) providing flavor", from the transitive verb:

      Quote from: Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary
      1. To render palatable by adding salt, spice, or the like; hence to make pungent, piquant, etc. 
      2. To treat by some process that will put it in[to] condition for use [....]

      Where quoted definition 1. indicates that when REV. AUGUSTINE allows fat, he's allowing the faithful to enjoy the flavor of meat despite the plain prohibition against enjoying solid meat itself.  That seems at odds with a "necessity of penance" that's based on knowingly limiting the "quality of viands" that's manifested, i.a., as flavor.  And where I interpret quoted definition 2. as not being applied to edible items, but to inedible objects such as cast-iron cookware.

      I suppose that with the last traditional Code of Canon Law having been promulgated in 1917 by Pope Benedict XV (1914--1922), your 1918 A COMMENTARY might outrank my 1907 source. Sigh.
      For more brevity, 1 or more of the traditional catechisms that're on the Internet should suffice (at least, they usually do
    • , don't they?).


    It also seems reasonable for other CathInfo members to offer links to relevant individual postings in CathInfo's own "The Library" forum (but remember that our owner-moderator has decreed: "NO DISCUSSIONS ALLOWED [T]HERE ! ).
    -------
    Note *: I haven't done an ad hoc review of those catechisms; in this instance, the C.E. article seemed to meet my immediate needs.


    Offline TKGS

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #20 on: January 25, 2016, 07:02:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: AlligatorDicax
    Thanks for the detailed citation.  A recent Internet search didn't find such a detailed citation, never mind actual content on line, so I suppose what you posted, you had to transcribe via your own keyboard.


    You can download the Commentary from which I quoted here:

    https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary

    I truly am not sure what you are asking or what information you are seeking by your post.

    I believe the spirit of the law is that one is to abstain from the meat of animals, other than of fish, on Fridays as an act of penance.  As such, I would not eat food that is prepared in such a way that would have the taste of ordinary flesh meat.  As such, I would abstain from all normal (farm) animal meat, as well as other meats that are similar, such as frog legs.  Having never eaten snake or sea mammals, if they also were similar to pork, beef, or chicken, I would abstain from them as well.  I abstain from foods that have been artificially created so as to appear to be meat, such as "veggie burgers" (though I don't eat them anyway).  

    It seems to me that it is not much of a sacrifice to substitute, say, frog legs for chicken legs on Friday, though I believe the commentary I provided does not permit that substitution anyway and I don't believe the cold-blooded/warm-blooded criterion identified by a poster earlier is valid.  I don't believe whale meat is legal in the U.S., but even if it is, I have never had any nor would I know where to get it--I'm sure it would be outside my budget anyway.  But if it is similar to ordinary meats, I would abstain as well.

    These are my personal opinions and describe how my conscience works on this matter.  I do not say my opinion is binding on anyone other than myself.  I do believe the Commentary I provided gives an authoritative explanation as to what is permitted and should be followed by all Catholics.

    Offline Student of Qi

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #21 on: January 27, 2016, 01:17:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: TKGS
    Quote from: Student of Qi

    Quote
    BTW flesh meat includes turkey, chicken, buffalo, venison, rabbit, etc.  It has to be fish to be off the list.


    A simple correction if I may.

    Not all fish is permissible on Friday. Some fish are warm blooded and must be avoided. One example is (I think) the Yellow Fin Tuna.

    All cold blooded animals are allowed: frogs, snakes, fish etc.


    What is your source for this?

    I have never seen any actual Church declaration or theological opinion that use the warm-blooded / cold-blooded animal issue.  In fact, I once read a theological commentary that specifically identified whale meat (i.e., a warm-blooded mammal) as a fish and therefore not subject to the Friday abstinence.  The commentary, by the way, knew that whales are warm-blooded and classified as mammals by biologists.  The entire question revolved around whether whales were "fish" which has been defined at times as simply an animal that swims in the sea.

    I have read many laymen use the warm-blooded / cold-blooded criterion, but no one has ever been able to give me a good reason for this criterion other than it just seems right.





    Unfortunately, the only source I can provide is tradition. One example from history is of the Spanish explorer Orillana. He was traveling down the Amazon, the food supplies low, the men growing hungry, a soldier spots what turns out to be a manatee and hopes they may be eaten. The priest accompanying the expedition forbade them from consuming the beasts as manatees were determined to be of warm blood and it was Friday. This was in the mid 1600s I recall.

    I have heard a of sermon on Friday abstinence and what seemed a logical explanation of why only beings of cold blood are permissible. Alas! That was a long time ago and do not remember it.

    That's the best I can give to you for now, sorry.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Student of Qi

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #22 on: January 27, 2016, 01:34:01 AM »
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  • Quote
    I believe the spirit of the law is that one is to abstain from the meat of animals, other than of fish, on Fridays as an act of penance.  As such, I would not eat food that is prepared in such a way that would have the taste of ordinary flesh meat.  As such, I would abstain from all normal (farm) animal meat, as well as other meats that are similar, such as frog legs.  Having never eaten snake or sea mammals, if they also were similar to pork, beef, or chicken, I would abstain from them as well.  I abstain from foods that have been artificially created so as to appear to be meat, such as "veggie burgers" (though I don't eat them anyway).

    It seems to me that it is not much of a sacrifice to substitute, say, frog legs for chicken legs on Friday, though I believe the commentary I provided does not permit that substitution anyway and I don't believe the cold-blooded/warm-blooded criterion identified by a poster earlier is valid.  I don't believe whale meat is legal in the U.S., but even if it is, I have never had any nor would I know where to get it--I'm sure it would be outside my budget anyway.  But if it is similar to ordinary meats, I would abstain as well.

    These are my personal opinions and describe how my conscience works on this matter.  I do not say my opinion is binding on anyone other than myself.  I do believe the Commentary I provided gives an authoritative explanation as to what is permitted and should be followed by all Catholics.





    I too have only fish on Fridays (That is all that is available). But consider this: A snake is the only creature you have to eat on a Friday, so you eat it. It is not seasoned, it does taste mildly of Gallus Gallus Domestcus, but it is tough and hard to chew. Overall it is not pleasant. Especially if not much meat is present on the bones.

    This is personal experience and critique from the third sentence down.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll


    Offline Dolores

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #23 on: January 27, 2016, 07:54:03 AM »
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  • This section from the 1917 Code of Canon Law may help answer the OP's question:

    Quote from: Canon 1250
    The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and of broth made of meat, but does not exclude the use of eggs, milk and the products of milk (namely cheese and butter), and any seasonings of food, even those made from the fat of animals.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #24 on: January 27, 2016, 07:58:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    So eat all the locusts you want on Friday.


    I'll remember that for Lent.

    Offline CathMomof7

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #25 on: January 27, 2016, 08:38:51 AM »
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  • Quote



    I too have only fish on Fridays (That is all that is available). But consider this: A snake is the only creature you have to eat on a Friday, so you eat it. It is not seasoned, it does taste mildly of Gallus Gallus Domestcus, but it is tough and hard to chew. Overall it is not pleasant. Especially if not much meat is present on the bones.

    This is personal experience and critique from the third sentence down.


    Then you don't know how to cook it properly.  Rattlesnake is delicious.  But you have to make a batter and fry it.  Tastes like chicken.

     :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat:


    Offline Student of Qi

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #26 on: January 29, 2016, 08:19:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Dolores
    This section from the 1917 Code of Canon Law may help answer the OP's question:

    Quote from: Canon 1250
    The law of abstinence forbids the eating of flesh meat and of broth made of meat, but does not exclude the use of eggs, milk and the products of milk (namely cheese and butter), and any seasonings of food, even those made from the fat of animals.



    If we were to interpret this Canon strictly, would it not also prohibit the use of fish? Fish is also meat...
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll

    Offline Student of Qi

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    How Far Does Friday Abstinence Go?
    « Reply #27 on: January 29, 2016, 08:37:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7
    Quote



    I too have only fish on Fridays (That is all that is available). But consider this: A snake is the only creature you have to eat on a Friday, so you eat it. It is not seasoned, it does taste mildly of Gallus Gallus Domestcus, but it is tough and hard to chew. Overall it is not pleasant. Especially if not much meat is present on the bones.

    This is personal experience and critique from the third sentence down.


    Then you don't know how to cook it properly.  Rattlesnake is delicious.  But you have to make a batter and fry it.  Tastes like chicken.

     :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat: :ready-to-eat:



    I admit my cooking repertoire exceeds no more than 12. Around here our cold blooded natives are copper heads, chicken snakes (they have a lot of meat), water moccasin, tree frogs, bull frogs - which are in decline thanks to a blue heron. -, catfish, pan fish (perch) and other beings who take much room to list (bugs).

    I would try to cook more snakes but kitchen facilities are off limits for such things. If such is to be cooked then it must be done primitively.
    Many people say "For the Honor and Glory of God!" but, what they should say is "For the Love, Glory and Honor of God". - Fr. Paul of Moll