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Author Topic: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?  (Read 537 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
« on: December 13, 2019, 11:50:19 PM »
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    • This is something that has been troubling me lately please help
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    Offline Banezian

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #1 on: December 13, 2019, 11:56:13 PM »
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    • Well we have to remember that Mary is nothing of herself. Left to  herself, she’d be a sinner just like us. God’s grace   is what preserved her from sin at her conception and throughout her life. Her Will was completely conformed to His by His grace. Romans 3:23 is speaking about the rest of us( who d8d not receive this special grace from God)
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    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
    Ephesians 2:8-9

    Offline trad123

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #2 on: December 14, 2019, 12:05:35 AM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline donkath

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #3 on: December 14, 2019, 07:53:50 AM »
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    • On 8 December 1854, Pope Pius IX proclaimed the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. It proclaimed the status of Mary as free from Original Sin from the instant she was conceived. Until this point, while Mary’s status was universally held to be the pinnacle of virtue, the question of Immaculate Conception had remained undefined in Roman Catholicism, leading to a sense of confusion concerning papal dogma.
    The proclamation brought resolution to an issue that had flummoxed the Catholic Church for hundreds of years. As early as the twelfth century the issue of Mary’s status was being debated, with rival factions within the church unable to agree on precisely the nature of the mother of Christ’s exalted status. Pope Pius IX’s proclamation allowed all members of the Catholic Church to unify their understanding of the Immaculate Conception, and helped standardise the terminology of the conception throughout the Catholic faith.
    Representatives of the church across the Catholic world, uncertain of the Vatican’s position, had raised the issue with Pope Gregory XVI, Pius IX’s predecessor. On attaining office, Pius was also lobbied by bishops and cardinals keen to attain resolution, and after ordering several commissions to investigate the matter, he decided to issue a decree that would clarify the position of the church. In a formal ceremony known as a Papal Bull, used to pass a solemn decree into Catholic Law, Pius IX declared that,
    “”…the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.””
    Through stating that Mary was free of Original Sin from the very beginning of her existence, she was absolved of the collective guilt that is the burden upon the shoulders of all humans following mankind’s fall from grace in the Garden of Eden. Whereas it is the responsibility and duty of all Catholics to conduct their lives in a manner that earns the forgiveness of God, Mary was granted sinless status by God in pre-emptive recognition of her future mothering of the son of God, Jesus Christ.
    The Immaculate Conception is often wrongly confused with the virginal conception of Jesus. Catholics do not claim that Mary’s conception circuмvented biological laws; her parents were not divine, and are commonly recognised as being Saint Joachim and Saint Anne. Jesus, on the other hand, according to the tenets of Roman Catholicism, was the product of a miraculous pregnancy, untainted by carnal intervention.”

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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline donkath

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #4 on: December 14, 2019, 08:13:35 AM »
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    Left to  herself, she’d be a sinner just like us Mary was never capable of personal sin full stop

    Wrong!
    Mary would never have been created if she could sin like us.  From the moment of her conception she was unable to sin full stop.  She was conceived and born full of grace.  She was redeemed in that she alone was preserved from inheriting the state of original sin.  The rest of us are sinners, who unlike the Immaculate Virgin, have inherited the state of original sin until we are baptised and thereafter remain capable of sinning right up to our death.
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    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline ca246

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #5 on: December 14, 2019, 11:05:12 AM »
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    • Epistle to the Romans, Chapter III: "What advantage then hath the Jєω: or what is the profit of circuмcision? ... But now, without the law, the justice of God is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all, and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction. For all have sinned and do need the glory of God."

    You reconcile the perceived contradiction by recognizing that Saint Paul is addressing a particular group of people in a language other than English within the context of the judaizer heresy. The words "all" and "whole" in the Bible can mean "every SORT of" rather than "every SPECIMEN of" as the Greek root word used means "every." Otherwise, that would mean Jesus also had sinned.

    πάντες γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ὑστεροῦνται τῆς δόξης τοῦ θεοῦ
    Romans 3:23


    Interpreting "all" as "every SPECIMEN of" would also be absurd in other verses:

    Πέπεισμαι δέ, ἀδελφοί μου, καὶ αὐτὸς ἐγὼ περὶ ὑμῶν, ὅτι καὶ αὐτοὶ μεστοί ἐστε ἀγαθωσύνης, πεπληρωμένοι πάσης γνώσεως, δυνάμενοι καὶ ἄλλους νουθετεῖν.
    Certus sum autem fratres mei et ego ipse de vobis, quoniam et ipsi pleni estis dilectione, repleti omni scientia, ita ut possitis alterutrum monere.
    And I myself also, my brethren, am assured of you that you also are full of love, replenished with all knowledge, so that you are able to admonish one another.
    Romans 15:14
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    Offline 30 06

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #6 on: December 14, 2019, 02:23:22 PM »
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    Wrong!
    Mary would never have been created if she could sin like us. From the moment of her conception she was unable to sin full stop. She was conceived and born full of grace. She was redeemed in that she alone was preserved from inheriting the state of original sin. The rest of us are sinners, who unlike the Immaculate Virgin, have inherited the state of original sin until we are baptised and thereafter remain capable of sinning right up to our death.


    You're the one who is wrong. Blessed Mary still had free will to sin. She wasn't a mechanical being unable to sin. That wouldn't make her blessed and virtuous. Even though she was concieved without sin, she chose to avoid sin during her life through the grace of God.

    Your argument is what the Eastern Schismatics use to argue against, which is a strawman because they claim the Roman Church's dogmatic position is that Blessed Mary wasn't capable of sin, then they continue to argue against that false position.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #7 on: December 14, 2019, 02:36:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on December 13, 2019, 11:50:19 PM
    This is something that has been troubling me lately please help

    Well, you're troubled because you take a single out-of-context quotation and attempt to interpret it yourself.  You need to accept the Church's Tradition and the Church's interpretation of this passage.  St. Paul's statement that "all" have sinned is a broad generalization, with the obvious exceptions being unstated, based on the context of what he was saying.  Do you believe that Our Lord sinned?  If you accept this statement absolutely ... and out of its context ... then you'd have to include Our Lord Jesus in that as well.

    And the context of what St. Paul is saying is that neither Jєωs nor Gentiles, as groups, are free from sin.  He's talking about members of both groups being sinners, and not using the term "all" in some absolute sense.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #8 on: December 14, 2019, 07:31:18 PM »
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    • The Church teaches that Mary was unable to sin from the moment of her conception being full of grace when visited by the Archangel Gabriel. To say she was free to sin is an oxymoron.  Until we are liberated from the ability to sin we are not free but in bondage. Mary was never in bondage.   Only when we are in Purgatory or heaven will we be incapable of sin.  Mary was granted that privilege  throughout her whole life before her Assumption directly into heaven.   The Church Fathers call her the second Eve. Mary undid the sin of the first Eve.  

    The better question to ask is how would she have responded if She had been the first Eve?  Answer: She would never have disobeyed God and we would never have inherited the state of original sin.  The question of  disobedience would never have surfaced. and if Christ (God/Man) was the first Adam ….well you work it out!   Death was never of God’s making.

    We have been given the basic tenets of our faith.  After that we use our reason prayerfully contemplating the mystery.

    It is the teaching of the Church that only through Her intercession seeking mercy for us sinners that anybody enters heaven.  

    Pray for us O Holy Mother of God that (like Thee) we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.  

    Reflection:  It is sheer poetic justice and the greatest blow to Satan’s pride that in choosing the weaker sex in Eve - a woman - to tempt Adam - that God will destroy the self-proclaimed Prince of this world forever under Mary’s heel.    



    *You are introducing a strawman yourself diverting the subject to what eastern schmatics believe, disbelieve or argue against.
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    Offline 30 06

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #9 on: December 16, 2019, 11:57:11 AM »
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    • The Church calls Blessed Mary "the second Eve". And Eve being created perfect, was still able to sin, which she freely chose to do, hence, the mess the human race is in ... Mary freely chose NOT to sin, hence, the redemption offered by the only Redeemer, her Son, Jesus Christ. She still had free will to sin, just as the angels in Heaven had free will to sin, which 1/3 of them did by rejecting God and siding with Lucifer, hence, their casting into hell.

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    *You are introducing a strawman yourself diverting the subject to what eastern schmatics believe, disbelieve or argue against.

    No, that would be called a red herring fallacy, but the point I was making is that you shouldn't give Eastern Schismatics a reason to use a strawman argument against the Church's position on the Immaculate Conception and her remaining sinless through her life. She still had free will to sin. She, not by her own merit or by a mechanical programming by God, but rather by the grace of God, she freely chose to avoid sin and become the Living Ark of the New Covenant.
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    Offline 30 06

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #10 on: December 16, 2019, 11:59:16 AM »
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    • * Arc not "Ark"
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #11 on: December 16, 2019, 08:55:34 PM »
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: How do you reconcile the immaculate conception with Romans 3:23?
    « Reply #12 on: December 17, 2019, 01:27:22 PM »
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    She still had free will to sin, just as the angels in Heaven had free will to sin, which 1/3 of them did by rejecting God and siding with Lucifer, hence, their casting into hell.
    Mary never had the free will to sin!   It would be as sacriligious for me to say that Mary lost her free will because unable to sin as it would be sacriligious for me to say that Christ in his humanity lost his free will because unable to sin.    




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