Author Topic: How are temperaments made? (Read 1553 times)

spouse of Jesus · « **on:** December 07, 2011, 12:32:55 AM »

What causes us to be born with different temperaments? Is it inherited?Or what a mother eats and does in pregnancy determines it?

Raoul76 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2011, 01:01:29 AM »

Spouse, I am translating a book for the CMRI out of French, by Père Timon-David, and right now I'm working on an enormous section that goes into great detail about the temperaments. When I'm done, do you want me to post it in the library?

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2011, 01:50:50 AM »

It is your book. I can't decide.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2011, 10:46:26 PM »

Lol, in that case I won't post it. I thought it might be helpful for you since you are asking about temperaments.

I'm guessing you have the melancholy temperament :sign-surrender:

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2011, 11:29:18 PM »

Yes I have. And because I have a hard time understanding cholerics and sanguines, I'm searching for ways to avoid having any child of those temperaments in future.
Sanguine ladies are first to leave islam here. So I fear lest the same thing happens to sanguine catholics!
One who prefers a piece of music to his/her religion should not be trusted.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2011, 12:44:48 AM »

The cholerics are considered by this author to be the highest of the temperaments, those who are most passionate when they turn to God... EXCEPT for a fifth temperament he calls the "nervous."

I don't know what I am. I have the reputation of being angry, but my anger was really my melancholy turned outward against the world. I don't think I was particularly angry when I was a kid -- but this author does say that it's latent and comes out in young adulthood.

He seems to consider the phlegmatics and melancholics to have more of a handicap, while the sanguines and cholerics -- the two you don't like -- are generally good, or easier to turn to good.

The way he describes melancholics makes me think of the tormented heroes of romantic novels, like Rochester in Jane Eyre, or of romantic poets, like Schiller and so on. He sees them as coal-eyed, malevolent Satanists, basically.

L'Abbé Timon-David, Treatise on Confession for Children and Young People --

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At 25 years old or earlier, he is the founder and the president of clubs, a venerable member of Masonic lodges, the leader everywhere that cօռspιʀαcιҽs are woven; because here is the role of all the temperaments in a plot: the sanguine brings life, movement, high spirits to it; the lymphatic [ phlegmatic ]follows from afar and contributes to its numbers; all is arranged for the profit of the bilious who directs everything and lords it over the rest; the melancholic personally embodies the kind of conspirator who wants to do evil out of hatred or vengeance. Having arrived at a mature age, examples of these temperaments in all their ugliness have names like Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Tiberius, Calvin and others of their ilk. Their religion is funereal, without true worship, without an altar; Calvinism is the faithful reflection of it; Robespierre is, in our era, the most horrifying personification of it.

Sounds just like you, Spouse :wink:

Raoul76 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2011, 12:51:08 AM »

Just so this doesn't bring you to despair, keep in mind that he is talking about the temperaments in their purest form, but they are almost never found in one person without being mixed with all the other temperaments. We have one that is more prominent than the others, but we basically have degrees of all of them.

L'Abbé Timon-David, Treatise on Confession for Children and Young People

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It can happen that instead of turning towards crime, these temperaments sometimes turn towards piety. This is an immense happiness for them and for society as a whole; but this piety doesn’t come without a hitch. It is dolorous like their character; it takes a great deal of effort to make them understand the kindness and the tenderness of God, the best of fathers, the maternal affection of the Most Holy Virgin, the benevolent protection of the angels and the saints. They are happier when contemplating gloomy subjects, death, the last judgment, hell, the terrifyingly severe aspects of the inexorable justice of God. They prop themselves up exclusively with these things. It goes to their head, and their piety takes on a touch of stern intolerance that makes them unbearable to themselves and plunges them into the grievous and almost incurable malady known as scruples. At this point the confessor becomes truly miserable. He must listen to them over and over, give them confession all the time, learn to speak their language to be better able to convince them, although usually in vain; since, if they give in, it’s only to return after a short while to their former ideas, that nothing can detach them from. Will you try to adapt your thoughts to theirs? Would it be better to challenge them? Should you attempt sweetness with them? Should you be harsh with them, with that commanding tone that forces your convictions on those of sanguine temperaments? All will be for naught! Their stubbornness in their ideas defies every means used on them...

Raoul76 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2011, 12:59:50 AM »

This is really an incredible book. It's supposed to be about confession for children, but it ranges into all kinds of deep psychology. He is able to express challenging thoughts with an entertaining style. I think God set me on this project for a reason, psychology is sort of my specialty. Although after reading this book, I now see that the way I confronted Tele was wrong; Tele is a phlegmatic and he says they shouldn't be cornered or confronted. Although he has heavy doses of melancholy and choler. It certainly doesn't apply to him when the author says of phlegmatics that "Foolish passions are unknown to them." Luckily he is not as torpid and moronically complacent as the phlegmatics are described, either.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2011, 05:50:25 AM »

Quote from: spouse of Jesus

Sanguine ladies are first to leave islam here. So I fear lest the same thing happens to sanguine catholics!
One who prefers a piece of music to his/her religion should not be trusted.

Having a sanguine temperament does not in itself mean a person will be so frivolous, shallow and flighty as to leave their religion or prefer a piece of music to his/her religion. I doubt sanguines are more prone to apostatizing than people with the other temperaments. All have weaknesses which can be a danger to the soul if not recognized and acted against in a spirit of prayer.

A Catholic who learns what his/her predominant temperaments are can put them to use. None of the temperaments are handicaps per se, to being a faithful Catholic and saving ones soul.

Raoul, The book, or at least the section about the temperaments sounds very interesting. I would like to see it posted.

Vladimir · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2011, 11:00:46 PM »

Is "The Anatomy of Melancholy" a worthy purchase?

spouse of Jesus · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2011, 11:19:54 PM »

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The cholerics are considered by this author to be the highest of the temperaments, those who are most passionate when they turn to God... EXCEPT for a fifth temperament he calls the "nervous."

I have studied temperament and as far as I know, our faith is the only one who says good things about melancholic. Others dislike us!

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Having a sanguine temperament does not in itself mean a person will be so frivolous, shallow and flighty as to leave their religion or prefer a piece of music to his/her religion. I doubt sanguines are more prone to apostatizing than people with the other temperaments. All have weaknesses which can be a danger to the soul if not recognized and acted against in a spirit of prayer.

As far as I know sanguines don't fully leave their faith, though it is very easy for them break it's commandments on and on! While a melancholic is not tempted by worldly allures, he might lose his faith completely by reading dark novels of nihilists!

Raoul76 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2011, 12:30:24 AM »

spouse_of_Jesus said:

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As far as I know sanguines don't fully leave their faith, though it is very easy for them break it's commandments on and on! While a melancholic is not tempted by worldly allures, he might lose his faith completely by reading dark novels of nihilists!

That's how I spent my twenties. I wish I was joking!

I was in such bad shape that the Protestant philosopher Kierkegaard actually helped put me on the right track with his Concluding Unscientific Postscript -- to his credit, despite not being Catholic, he saw the anti-Christ and meaningless messages being peddled by the likes of Hegel. In that book, at the end, he talks about giving all credit for everything you do to God, which may have been hypocritical in his case, who knows, but it got me thinking, the light began to go on. He sort of cut through the intellectual fog I was in. So may God have mercy on his soul, I hope he was in invincible ignorance though it's unlikely.

I guess you will have to rethink what you said about me being a choleric, spouse. I am proof that melancholics can change; they can become massive cholerics, and then maybe even sanguines!

But you misread what I said, this author is not at all positive about melancholics, he considers them to be more troubled than cholerics or sanguines, probably because those two are a little more active in personality.

I'll post the chapter, Roman Catholic, I have 40 pages left in this chapter on the temperaments. Father Gabriel is compiling all this, he said he was going to send it out to people. The unofficial deadline, which I intend to meet anyway, is May.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2011, 12:37:42 AM »

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Authentically solid virtue is by nature unattainable for the sanguine. Nevertheless grace has a way of gaining a foothold in his soul. Their ardent imaginations understand and admire virtue, and, incapable of being discouraged, because they never question themselves, they throw themselves freely into all the excesses of devotion and of virtue, except without persevering very long. An accurate portrait of this kind of character can be read in the wonderful story that M. Bougaud has left us concerning the troubles that Saint Jane Chantal was given by her son, M. de Rabutin. We see him piously walking away from the altar, a moment later taking up with a friend who chooses him as his second in a duel, killing an adversary that he doesn’t even know, then repenting with an ease and, especially, a sincerity that will never be understood by those of a different character, or who haven’t studied nature as it is in nature.

Yeah, the sanguines remind me of American businessmen, who I've always felt a kind of horror towards. People who just lightly undertake the greatest tasks, while I sit and wrack my brains and torment myself about the slightest thing. I'd always had a huge prejudice against this kind of "normal" person, but when I became Catholic I tried to see the good in them, and to look at my own flaws. Catholics, after all, are not supposed to be tormented, or to try to prove how deep they are by being in a gloom all the time.

Telesphorus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2011, 08:00:00 AM »

What is "normal" in America today is not normal. People in the past had more authentic personalities, I'm convinced of it.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #14 on:** December 09, 2011, 08:52:07 AM »

Quote from: Telesphorus

What is "normal" in America today is not normal. People in the past had more authentic personalities, I'm convinced of it.

I agree. What is usual or common in America today is not normal.