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Offline CampeadorShin

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Holocaust denial?
« on: December 16, 2006, 02:43:54 PM »
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  • I don't deny the Holocaust happened, but I don't know who to believe on the numbers.

    Some say 8 million jews died, some say a couple hundred thousand. I've heard other estimates in between too.

    I think it happened, but I don't know who to believe on how many "Jews" died.

    But some of you have been posting as though you don't think anything actually happened.

    I guess I'm just asking everyone to reveal themselves.

    (Don't stray from the topic this time, the topic is holocaust denial, not defining what the holocaust is or isn't)
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
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    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #1 on: December 16, 2006, 03:03:52 PM »
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  • I don't believe in the Establishment portrayal of the so-called "Holocaust," which changed in the 1960s, and again in the 1990s, and even nowadays. I believe that many Jews died under Hitler's regime, but not 6 million, let alone 8 million because of "death camps". I posted a link to the Holocaust conference, consisting of so-called "Holocaust deniers." Quite a bit of the material is excellent, though not all, of course.
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this


    Offline CampeadorShin

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #2 on: December 16, 2006, 03:15:36 PM »
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  • I just want to make it clear to anyone who's "ghosting" the forums that we ARE NOT racist holocaust deniers.
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
    http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6007

    Offline antyshemanic

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #3 on: December 16, 2006, 03:27:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Quo Vadis Petre
    I don't believe in the Establishment portrayal of the so-called "Holocaust," which changed in the 1960s, and again in the 1990s, and even nowadays. I believe that many Jews died under Hitler's regime, but not 6 million, let alone 8 million because of "death camps". I posted a link to the Holocaust conference, consisting of so-called "Holocaust deniers." Quite a bit of the material is excellent, though not all, of course.


    I SECOND THAT !!! :dancing:

    Offline CampeadorShin

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #4 on: December 16, 2006, 09:36:13 PM »
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  • All right.

    I have to ask for a number.
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
    http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6007


    Offline antyshemanic

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #5 on: December 16, 2006, 09:45:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: CampeadorShin
    All right.

    I have to ask for a number.


    You got to be joking? How in the world do you expect us to answer that when the ones that proclaim 'holocaust' have NO IDEA themselves.   :rolleyes:

    Why don't you answer your on ? How many? What is your exact number?

    Offline CampeadorShin

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #6 on: December 17, 2006, 01:38:28 PM »
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  • I just want to know what people think is the more reasonable number of dead "jews".

    8 million is too high, I agree, especially with the census numbers from the other thread.
    Catholic warriors:
    http://www.angelusonline.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=490&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
    My older avatar of Guy Fawkes that caused so much arguing, made by peters_student:
    http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6007

    Offline antyshemanic

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #7 on: December 17, 2006, 02:04:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: CampeadorShin
    I just want to know what people think is the more reasonable number of dead "jews".

    8 million is too high, I agree, especially with the census numbers from the other thread.


    Hi Campy, just take your pick at the one you 'believe'.

    The Numbers Decline, The Controversy Increases
    Multiple Sources
    1-21-5
    It is past time for an international investigation conducted by truly impartial scientists, researchers and scholars into the reality of Auschwitz to properly and as accurately as possible bring history into accord with the facts. Peoples of all religions and persuasions have a right to such facts. So far, as the following data demonstrates, we are a long way from a consensus on the truth of what happened at Auschwitz in WWII.

    9,000,000 Source: Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

    8,000,000 Source: The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

    7,000,000 Source: Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

    6,000,000 Source: Cited in the book Auschwitz Doctor by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

    5,000,000 to 5,500,000 Source: Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Höss, based on his confession which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

    5,000,000 Source: Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

    4,500,000 Source: In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Höss trial.

    4,000,000 Source: Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995, The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

    3,500,000 Source: Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.

    3,000,000 Source: Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Höss, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

    2,500,000 Source: Cited by Rudolf Vrba (an author of various fraudulent accounts of events he claims to have witnessed at Auschwitz) when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

    2,000,000 Source: Cited by Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in Harvest of Hate; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in The War Against the Jews.

    2,000,000 to 4,000,000 Source: Cited by Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, A History of the Holocaust. However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figure to 1,600,000.
    1,600,000 Source: This is a 1989 revision by Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote "The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

    1,500,000 Source: In 1995 this was the number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by those at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).
    1,471,595 Source: This is a 1983 figure cited by Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died.

    1,433,000 Source: This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

    1,250,000 Source: In the book, The Destruction of the European Jews, by Raul Hilberg (1985).

    1,100,000 to 1,500,000 Source: Sources for this estimate are Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum in their 1984 book, Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 is (the new) "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

    1,000,000 Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

    900,000 Source: Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

    800,000 to 900,000 Source: Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his book, The Final Solution.

    775,000 to 800,000 Source: Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery, scaling down his earlier claim of 1,000,000 dead.

    630,000 to 710,000 Source: In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

    135,000 to 140,000 Source: This is an estimate based on documents held by the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross. It is known that International Tracing Service has a complete set of registration documents. This is thought to include a complete set of roll-call data which includes twice daily tallies of those who died. Although the International Tracing Service of the Red Cross has such records, they have never officially published an accurate count of those who died, or even an accurate report as to exactly which documents they hold. However, totals from these records have been obtained by various interested parties.

    The estimate of 135,500 is roughly corroborated by the "Auschwitz death books." The death books themselves are wartime German camp records, which were captured by the Soviets towards the end of the war, and hidden in Soviet achieves, until released to the Red Cross in 1989.

    The death books consist of 46 volumes which document each death at Auschwitz (each death certificate consists of the deceased person's full name, profession and religion, date and place of birth, pre-Auschwitz residence, parents' names, time of death, and cause of death as determined by a camp physician). The records for the most important years, 1942 and 1943, are almost complete (there are also a few volumes for the year 1941, but none for the year 1944 or January 1945 (when Auschwitz was evacuated)).

    The Auschwitz death books contain the death certificates of some 69,000 individuals, of whom about 30,000 were listed as Jews. You may view various entries in the Auschwitz Death Books by clicking on the following links to the Auschwitz museum:
    Using all available wartime records from the various camps it has been estimated that between 400,000 and
    500,000 people died in the German concentration camp system (from all causes).

    The ever declining numbers of alleged dead at Auschwitz, are graphically illustrated by the plaques from the camp.
    The first is the plaque that was on display at the Auschwitz camp from 1948 until 1989 and states "4 million" victims.
    The second plaque currently on display at Auschwitz has the dramatically reduced number of victims, now only 1.5 million.
    A casual reduction in the number of deaths by some 2.5 million.

    Deaths at Auschwitz drop by a stunning 2.5 million, but the legendary 6,000,000 figure remains the same.


    Offline antyshemanic

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    Holocaust denial?
    « Reply #8 on: December 17, 2006, 04:14:50 PM »
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  • OH...THERE 'S MORE ,but the article above had the most.  :smirk:

     

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