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Author Topic: Heretics?  (Read 3278 times)

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Offline Cato

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Heretics?
« on: June 20, 2014, 06:32:52 PM »
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  • Are all Protestants heretics?  Is a person a heretic if they never professed the Catholic faith?  Would N.O. Catholics be heretics too since they practice communion in the hand et al?  My question is is a person a heretic even if they don't know they are a heretic?


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 06:43:45 PM »
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  • It's important to distinguish between various types of heresy, because the "type" of heresy determines the punishment of the heretic, his guilt before God and his relationship to the Church.  All formal heresy, which is when a person knows that the Catholic Church teaches X and the person chooses to deny or doubt X, is a mortal sin.  If such heresy is public, then in addition to the mortal sin one is no longer a member of the Church.  Material heretics dissent from what the Church teaches, but they are unaware that they're supposed to believe what the Church teaches-- such a heretic is not guilty of heresy before God, however if he is a public heretic, he is not a member of the Church.

    Private heresy does not sever one's membership in the Church.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Cantarella

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 10:56:03 PM »
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  • Protestants are considered heretics. A heretic is not merely one who rejects anything related to the Catholic faith but one who "pertinaciously denies or doubts a truth of divine and Catholic faith" (Canon 1325 - 2). Protestants openly deny many Catholic dogmas such as The Immaculate Conception of Our Lady. Also nominal (cafeteria) Catholics who say "I will believe this and not that", picking and choosing from the Catholic Faith according to their whim, are considered heretics. In formal terms, a Catholic who denies the supremacy of the Pope becomes a schismatic (such as the Eastern Orthodox), whereas a Catholic who renounces his religion is considered an apostate.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline poche

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 11:00:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cato
    Are all Protestants heretics?  Is a person a heretic if they never professed the Catholic faith?  Would N.O. Catholics be heretics too since they practice communion in the hand et al?  My question is is a person a heretic even if they don't know they are a heretic?

    Protestants are heretics as the Priotestant religoins deny various truths of the Catholic Faith.
    The issues of communion in the hand et al are disciplines. They do not touch on matters of faith and morals. If someone who recieved communioni in the hand were to deny that Jesus were truly present in the Blessed Sacrament then he would be a heretic.
    It is possible to be a heretic without realizing it.  

    Offline SerpKerp

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 11:53:56 PM »
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  • I personally believe that most the Conservative Novus Ordo/Indult are not Heretics, and adhere to the True Faith if they are not Falsifying data in order to back up their positions on Vatican II.  

    Most Post Vatican II "catholics" are now what the mainstream calls cafeteria catholics, and they are most certainly Heretics.

    The Eastern Churches do adhere to some Heresies, but most of these Heresies have occurred after Papal and Council declarations of which they were not a party of due to the fact of Schism. For this reason many Traditional Catholics prefer to call them Schismatics, rather than Heretics.

    Protestants are certainly Heretics as they Objectively deny Multiple Dogmas very explicitly, most notably in the Eschatology of the (Invisible) Church of Christ as apposed to the Visible Catholic Church (which is the True Church of Christ).

    Ultimately Vatican II accepted this Hersey in the docuмent Lumen Gentium, which means that the Novus Ordo is Ultimately a member of the Protestant Hersey.


    Offline poche

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #5 on: June 21, 2014, 12:15:28 AM »
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  • The Eastern Churches do adhere to some Heresies, but most of these Heresies have occurred after Papal and Council declarations of which they were not a party of due to the fact of Schism. For this reason many Traditional Catholics prefer to call them Schismatics, rather than Heretics.

    The Eastern Rite Catholics are Catholics in the fullest sense of the word.

    Offline SerpKerp

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #6 on: June 21, 2014, 12:57:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: poche
    The Eastern Churches do adhere to some Heresies, but most of these Heresies have occurred after Papal and Council declarations of which they were not a party of due to the fact of Schism. For this reason many Traditional Catholics prefer to call them Schismatics, rather than Heretics.

    The Eastern Rite Catholics are Catholics in the fullest sense of the word.


    I used Eastern Churches, because I don't like to use eastern orthodox.

    Sorry if that is an improper term.

    The Eastern Rites put most Latins to shame now days.

    Offline Cato

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #7 on: June 21, 2014, 04:05:32 PM »
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  • Thank you, all!


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #8 on: June 23, 2014, 09:21:19 AM »
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  • Where is Traditional Catholic teaching on Protestants?  

    I just read this post on another site:

    They (Modern-day Protestants) aren't heretics, they simply (from the Catholic point of view) hold erroneous views.

    Of course this is probably a Novus Ordite speaking, but.....
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #9 on: June 23, 2014, 09:45:03 AM »
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  • According to novus ordo, no one is a heretic, except a Traditional Catholic.  Which I would say is heresy itself to believe in such.  
    Please pray for my soul.
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    Offline clare

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #10 on: June 23, 2014, 09:50:37 AM »
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  • What about a non-Catholic who actually accepts everything the Church teaches, considers himself a Catholic, attends Mass, but sees no need to join the Church formally? (I'm sure there must be such people!) Is he a heretic?


    Offline clarkaim

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #11 on: June 23, 2014, 11:46:34 AM »
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  • I know such a guy at my parish married to a trad wih plural catholic children.  More involved in stuff like Holy Name than I am.  I just like the guy and treat him with charity and let God worry about him.  Not sure what else to do or think.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #12 on: June 23, 2014, 01:12:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    It's important to distinguish between various types of heresy, because the "type" of heresy determines the punishment of the heretic, his guilt before God and his relationship to the Church.  All formal heresy, which is when a person knows that the Catholic Church teaches X and the person chooses to deny or doubt X, is a mortal sin.  If such heresy is public, then in addition to the mortal sin one is no longer a member of the Church.  Material heretics dissent from what the Church teaches, but they are unaware that they're supposed to believe what the Church teaches-- such a heretic is not guilty of heresy before God, however if he is a public heretic, he is not a member of the Church.

    Private heresy does not sever one's membership in the Church.



    So where does the person born into Protestantism fit in?

    Does one have to be Catholic first to be a heretic?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #13 on: June 24, 2014, 08:37:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    It's important to distinguish between various types of heresy, because the "type" of heresy determines the punishment of the heretic, his guilt before God and his relationship to the Church.  All formal heresy, which is when a person knows that the Catholic Church teaches X and the person chooses to deny or doubt X, is a mortal sin.  If such heresy is public, then in addition to the mortal sin one is no longer a member of the Church.  Material heretics dissent from what the Church teaches, but they are unaware that they're supposed to believe what the Church teaches-- such a heretic is not guilty of heresy before God, however if he is a public heretic, he is not a member of the Church.

    Private heresy does not sever one's membership in the Church.



    So where does the person born into Protestantism fit in?

    Does one have to be Catholic first to be a heretic?


    An infant validly baptized is a Catholic until he reaches the age of reason, where if he manifests his false religion, he can't be considered a Catholic.  He is a material heretic at least at this point.  If he reaches such a point where he both holds materially to error and rejects the rule of faith of the Catholic Church while being aware that he ought to be subject to it, his heresy is then formal.  

    The material/formal distinction is a moral one, and deals with the heretic's guilt before God.  However, protestants are public heretics and as such, without regard to whether they're formal or material, they are not to be counted as members of the Church.  

    In a certain sense, yes; one must be Catholic first to be a heretic because part of the definition of a heretic is one who claims the name of Christian (which really and ontologically means Catholic) and dissents from a truth of the Christian faith.  Jєωs, Buddhists, atheists etc. can't really be called heretics.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Heretics?
    « Reply #14 on: June 24, 2014, 09:09:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    It's important to distinguish between various types of heresy, because the "type" of heresy determines the punishment of the heretic, his guilt before God and his relationship to the Church.  All formal heresy, which is when a person knows that the Catholic Church teaches X and the person chooses to deny or doubt X, is a mortal sin.  If such heresy is public, then in addition to the mortal sin one is no longer a member of the Church.  Material heretics dissent from what the Church teaches, but they are unaware that they're supposed to believe what the Church teaches-- such a heretic is not guilty of heresy before God, however if he is a public heretic, he is not a member of the Church.

    Private heresy does not sever one's membership in the Church.



    So where does the person born into Protestantism fit in?

    Does one have to be Catholic first to be a heretic?


    An infant validly baptized is a Catholic until he reaches the age of reason, where if he manifests his false religion, he can't be considered a Catholic.  He is a material heretic at least at this point.  If he reaches such a point where he both holds materially to error and rejects the rule of faith of the Catholic Church while being aware that he ought to be subject to it, his heresy is then formal.  

    The material/formal distinction is a moral one, and deals with the heretic's guilt before God.  However, protestants are public heretics and as such, without regard to whether they're formal or material, they are not to be counted as members of the Church.  

    In a certain sense, yes; one must be Catholic first to be a heretic because part of the definition of a heretic is one who claims the name of Christian (which really and ontologically means Catholic) and dissents from a truth of the Christian faith.  Jєωs, Buddhists, atheists etc. can't really be called heretics.  


    I like you answered my question in the other thread all in one post! Thanks!  :-)
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)