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Author Topic: Heretics?  (Read 3792 times)

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Heretics?
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2014, 12:50:09 PM »
Quote from: Director
Where does one fit in who is labeled , "Suspect of Heresy", in that he does not believe in Baptism of Desire as a Doctrinal Church teaching.
 


Given this thread already has involvement from others; I'll clarify the particular canon you referenced Director and leave it at that. You already have intelligent posters here; so without being any more distracting; I'll leave it to them or anybody else to answer your questions (in your post).


Canon 2316
Quote
"Whoever in any manner willingly and knowingly helps in the promulgation of heresy, or who communicates in things divine with heretics against the prescription of Canon 1258, is Suspected of Heresy."


Canon Law: A Text and Commentary: Bouscaren and Ellis
Quote
"Suspicion of Heresy. One who is suspected of heresy, and who after warning fails to remove the cause of suspicion, shall be barred from legitimate acts, and if he is a cleric he shall moreover, after a repetition of the warning has proved fruitless, be suspended a divinis, if one who is suspected of heresy does not amend his life within six full months from the time when the penalty was incurred, he shall be considered a heretic and be subject to the penalties for heresy (C. 2315).
Co-operation in Heresy. One who spontaneously and with full knowledge helps in any way in the propagation of heresy, or who co-operates in divinis with heretics contrary to the provision of canon 1258, is suspected if heresy (C. 2316)


A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Woywod Vol. II
Quote
Suspicion of Heresy 2159. A person who is suspected of heresy, and who after admonition has not removed the cause for suspicion, shall be forbidden to exercise legal ecclesiastical acts; if he is a cleric, and after repeated admonition has not removed the cause for suspicion, he shall be suspended a divinis. If a person suspected of heresy has been punished with the penalties here stated, and does not amend within six months after their imposition, he shall be considered as a heretic and be liable to the penalties for heresy (Canon 2315). A person who of his own accord and knowingly helps in any manner to propagate heresy, or who communicates in sacred rites (in divinis) with heretics in violation of the prohibition of Canon 1258, incurs suspicion of heresy (Canon 2316)


Canon 1258
Quote
"§ 1. It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics."
"§ 2. Passive or merely material presence can be tolerated for the sake of honor or civil office, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and similar solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent."


A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Vol II Woywod
Quote
"Participation of Catholics in Non-Catholic Worship: It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part in the sacred services of non-Catholics. At funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is no danger of persversion or scandal, passive or merely material presence on account of a civil office or for the purpose of showing respect to a person may be tolerated for a grave reason, which in doubtful cases must be approved by the bishop (Canon 1258)"



Heretics?
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2014, 02:48:03 PM »
Quote from: Cato
Are all Protestants heretics?  Is a person a heretic if they never professed the Catholic faith?  Would N.O. Catholics be heretics too since they practice communion in the hand et al?  My question is is a person a heretic even if they don't know they are a heretic?


What does it matter who is or isn't a heretic if the ones here who are not sedevacantist don't believe anything happens to you anyways if you're a heretic?

As far as the people here are concerned, you can be an apostate antichrist and still be in the Church and be saved.

How can anyone here say any Protestant is a heretic if they believe their "authorities" and "fellow-Catholics" who are even worse than Protestants are still in the Church and can be saved?

How can any non-sedevacantist here dare speak about modernism if they believe you can well be a Modernist and still be in the Church and be saved?

So what?


Heretics?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2014, 01:45:27 PM »
Quote from: Mithrandylan
It's important to distinguish between various types of heresy, because the "type" of heresy determines the punishment of the heretic, his guilt before God and his relationship to the Church.  All formal heresy, which is when a person knows that the Catholic Church teaches X and the person chooses to deny or doubt X, is a mortal sin.  If such heresy is public, then in addition to the mortal sin one is no longer a member of the Church.  Material heretics dissent from what the Church teaches, but they are unaware that they're supposed to believe what the Church teaches-- such a heretic is not guilty of heresy before God, however if he is a public heretic, he is not a member of the Church.

Private heresy does not sever one's membership in the Church.



Are these distinctions to be found in dogmatic theology (I just purchased Van Noort!) or the Code of Canon Law or both?

Can you suggest which commentary on the old Code of Canon Law is best for use by a layman?


Heretics?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2014, 04:04:16 PM »
Quote from: Magna opera Domini
Quote from: Mithrandylan
It's important to distinguish between various types of heresy, because the "type" of heresy determines the punishment of the heretic, his guilt before God and his relationship to the Church.  All formal heresy, which is when a person knows that the Catholic Church teaches X and the person chooses to deny or doubt X, is a mortal sin.  If such heresy is public, then in addition to the mortal sin one is no longer a member of the Church.  Material heretics dissent from what the Church teaches, but they are unaware that they're supposed to believe what the Church teaches-- such a heretic is not guilty of heresy before God, however if he is a public heretic, he is not a member of the Church.

Private heresy does not sever one's membership in the Church.



Are these distinctions to be found in dogmatic theology (I just purchased Van Noort!) or the Code of Canon Law or both?

Can you suggest which commentary on the old Code of Canon Law is best for use by a layman?



The distinction between formal and material properly belongs to moral theology.  Though modern writers tend to explain this without the sort of precision that one would like to see.  Of course, I am "stuck" with English-only sources, perhaps works in other languages do a better job.  I think that De Lugo is probably the best source available, thanks to a translation by J.S. Daly: http://strobertbellarmine.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1632&sid=34bd18f3efaca7ecb7013b109d8ce926

That's not to say that the modern authorities are useless, but just that they oftentimes imply or even outright state that Catholics can be material heretics.  

As far as public vs. occult, that pertains more to dogmatic theology and canon law.  Do you have Van Noort yet?  You'll want to read his chapter on membership, which is probably the best synopsis on the issue I've read.  Vol II, starting on page 236.  If you haven't received yours yet, you can read a scan of the chapter here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/224429380/Van-Noort-Vol-2-Members-of-the-Church

At the turn of the last century, there was an impulse to make theology more accessible to the laity, so there are manuals written in mind for laymen of varying levels of intellect and free time.  However, this pressure never occurred in canon law, and as such canon law manuals are always written with the seminarian in mind.  And since law is law, and precision, definitions and terminology is everything (not to say it is unimportant in these other fields) there is no way to really "dumb it down."  Doesn't mean a good handle can't be had on it.  I only own two proper commentaries, and Penny Catechism quoted from both of them.

I would recommend Bouscaren and Ellis to start.  Pros: Easily and intuitively formatted, easy to find what you're looking for, few "over-explanations," comfortable size, good typeface with appropriate bolding and organization, and best of all you can find a copy for probably twenty USD with shipping.  Maybe even cheaper if you hold out a bit.

Cons: Because they avoid over-explaining things, there is a tendency to under-explain them.  Not all of the canons are treated, most notably they do not comment on canon 882, which is a shame.  It's by no means a short book, but in the scheme of things it's definitely brief.  Of course, this is probably what makes it a good intro book.

Woywood is far more comprehensive, though there are a few things I dislike which would keep me from recommending as a first commentary.  

(BTW-- Woywood has a "practical commentary" on the Code, and then he has another commentary.  I speak of the "practical commentary" and don't know much about the other.  The reason I bought the "Practical Commentary" is that it's the "Practical commentary" that I always find cited as a source.  So, when I refer to Woywood, I am referring to his "Practical Commentary")

There are two ways you can buy Woywood, both with their own pros and cons.  One way is to buy the two volume version.  Pros are that it's easier to read because it's not as big.  Don't underestimate the physical size of a book when considering between different versions!  You're the one who'll be sitting there reading it for hours.  Now, I have not actually used a two volume set but have a friend who owns them and I can tell you that I would much prefer to read out of those rather than the condensed one volume.  As to the content, it's substantially the same-- though I'm not sure about the index in the two volume set.  One drawback with the two volume set is cost.  You'll be lucky to get the set for less than fifty USD.  That might not be a problem for you, but the cost of these books can add up quickly.

A cheaper alternative is getting the Practical Commentary in the 1957 edition which was revised by a Callixtus Smith.  It's both volumes put into one book.  The main downside to this is that it's pretty big.  While it's far more comprehensive than Bouscaren, I find that it is not well organized.  The index is comprehensive enough (it really is a great index) but it's very confusing because there are page numbers, canon numbers, and then PARAGRAPH numbers.  Not to mention that because there are two volumes in one (plus appendix) the page numbers "start over" with the next volume, and I think they might even start over again for the appendices.

I think it's gratuitous to use paragraph numbers in a canon law book.  The canons are numbered for a reason!  Adding paragraph numbers just needlessly confuses things.  Anyways, it's quite comprehensive and better yet, because it is a later edition it keeps in mind any changes to the law-- and there are changes.  So for this reason, it is quite valuable, being the latest edition of a commentary on the 1917 by a tradition author available in English.  The appendices are quite helpful as well.  I was able to get the 1957 edition for around 30 USD including shipping.

What is also a tremendous resource, and FREE(!!!) is Augustine's commentary on the code.  It is the oldest of the three, but it is definitely worth it's weight.  Eight Volumes all available on archive.org for free.  Incidentally, the eight volume set is not too expensive.  I've done the math and if you play your cards right, you could end up paying about 15 USD per volume, and could probably get the set for less than 150 USD (that is, assuming you bought them one at a time).

Here is a link: https://archive.org/details/1917CodeOfCanonLawCommentary

There is also Abbo and Hannan, though I do not own them and have not used them.  I've heard good things, though their commentary is even more expensive than Woywood's.  And there are various other brief manuals.  Once you get started, what you'll probably find more interesting than anything else are the various CUA dissertations for the D.C.L. degree.  They are highly detailed dissertations on just a single canon, with historical synopsis.  A few of these are available online for free.  And depending on the one you want, they can typically be found for less than twenty dollars a volume.  

Final note: Keep in mind that at least for the English commentaries, the code itself is not in the commentary.  With Augustine, he gives it in Latin.  Neither Bouscaren or Woywood consistently give the exact wording for each law, though they will for some.  If you want the law itself in English, you will need to buy Dr. Peters translation.  You'll spend 30-40 USD on that.  Odd as it may sound, I do not think it's necessary, only helpful to have the actual code in English.

Heretics?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2014, 04:05:48 PM »
Quote from: The Penny Catechism
Quote from: Director
Where does one fit in who is labeled , "Suspect of Heresy", in that he does not believe in Baptism of Desire as a Doctrinal Church teaching.
 


Given this thread already has involvement from others; I'll clarify the particular canon you referenced Director and leave it at that. You already have intelligent posters here; so without being any more distracting; I'll leave it to them or anybody else to answer your questions (in your post).


Canon 2316
Quote
"Whoever in any manner willingly and knowingly helps in the promulgation of heresy, or who communicates in things divine with heretics against the prescription of Canon 1258, is Suspected of Heresy."


Canon Law: A Text and Commentary: Bouscaren and Ellis
Quote
"Suspicion of Heresy. One who is suspected of heresy, and who after warning fails to remove the cause of suspicion, shall be barred from legitimate acts, and if he is a cleric he shall moreover, after a repetition of the warning has proved fruitless, be suspended a divinis, if one who is suspected of heresy does not amend his life within six full months from the time when the penalty was incurred, he shall be considered a heretic and be subject to the penalties for heresy (C. 2315).
Co-operation in Heresy. One who spontaneously and with full knowledge helps in any way in the propagation of heresy, or who co-operates in divinis with heretics contrary to the provision of canon 1258, is suspected if heresy (C. 2316)


A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Woywod Vol. II
Quote
Suspicion of Heresy 2159. A person who is suspected of heresy, and who after admonition has not removed the cause for suspicion, shall be forbidden to exercise legal ecclesiastical acts; if he is a cleric, and after repeated admonition has not removed the cause for suspicion, he shall be suspended a divinis. If a person suspected of heresy has been punished with the penalties here stated, and does not amend within six months after their imposition, he shall be considered as a heretic and be liable to the penalties for heresy (Canon 2315). A person who of his own accord and knowingly helps in any manner to propagate heresy, or who communicates in sacred rites (in divinis) with heretics in violation of the prohibition of Canon 1258, incurs suspicion of heresy (Canon 2316)


Canon 1258
Quote
"§ 1. It is not licit for the faithful by any manner to assist actively or to have a part in the sacred [rites] of non-Catholics."
"§ 2. Passive or merely material presence can be tolerated for the sake of honor or civil office, for grave reason approved by the Bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, weddings, and similar solemnities of non-Catholics, provided danger of perversion and scandal is absent."


A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law: Vol II Woywod
Quote
"Participation of Catholics in Non-Catholic Worship: It is unlawful for the faithful to assist in any active manner, or to take part in the sacred services of non-Catholics. At funerals of non-Catholics, at their marriages, and similar solemnities, provided there is no danger of persversion or scandal, passive or merely material presence on account of a civil office or for the purpose of showing respect to a person may be tolerated for a grave reason, which in doubtful cases must be approved by the bishop (Canon 1258)"




You're a gem, PC.  May I ask, is your Woywood the 1957 revised one volume, or an earlier two-volume edition?